Dude, what's your beef with Keller?

Jeff, hmm, sorry that wasn't clear. Does the context communicate that I have a "beef" with small churches or Keller? It seems like the "beef", given the context, is with those who use either Keller, or some really small mission church, as the meta-defense for the fact that lutherans and presbyterians have a long track record for innovation and creativity.

Like me make it more simple by way of example.

Tom says, "hey, it seems that Presbyterians are some of the least innovative and creation cats in the church."

Shannon responds, "ahhh, not really man have you ever heard of Tim Keller?"

Clint also responds, "yeah, and I also know a really cool thing going in [city X] in Kentucky. The church is located in a diverse neighborhood and artists go there. It's up to about 60 people now!!"

Tom then says, "is that all you guys got? It seems like the Baptist and non-denom folks are exploding new innovative approaches to reaching our culture than Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists."

Austin, then chimes in, "hey the Lutherans and Presbyterians don't do innovative stuff and aren't all that creative and stuff because we are the brains of the church. That's our role in the Kingdom. Everyone comes to us for theology. So we provide the theology that everyone else implements. You can't expect us to do everything. How come those "innovative" and "creative" church communities don't provide people with good, solid theology to read?"

Tom simply smiles and nods and says, "huh, yeah, well I never thought about that before." (the whole time Tom's wondering why Austin would say something as dumb as a communion's role in the larger church is to be the "brains").

Hey Anthony, the Ambassador is one of the guys I found when I was researching "Lecrae and Reach Records" that I was talking with you about. I saw some youtube videos with the Ambassador and he was promoting his new album alongside Lecrae's new album, which came out only a week apart from each other. And they were both just totally spreading Gospel truth while promoting their new albums at the same time. It was really cool. Here's the link if you want to check it out:
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=flh-by2ecK8

So you got to speak with him? That's really cool. Maybe when I go back to Philly I'll check out that church

This is another good promo for the album as well.
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=txONqHIg9Wc&feature=related

First, I've read most of Keller, and I don't find him all that compelling. I wouldn't use most of his arguments in a discussion. I wouldn't employ Zacharias or McDowell or Strobel either. I think most non-Christians' beef with the church is its political agenda.
Second, Only the Lutherans have a refugee program that brings oppressed peoples to the States. I love that idea, think it is the only just method for Christians to help the oppressed abroad, don't know much about Lutheran Family Services' track record though.

I assume we are talking about innovation and creativity in church planting. If so that is true. But to take a blanket statement that Lutherans and Presbyterians are not innovative or creative is wrong.

Famous creative (outside of the christian ghetto) Presbyterians, Sufjan Stevens, Marilynne Robinson, and Sherwood Anderson. Off the top of my head.

Anyways the only Presbyterian churches I have been to have been small and in creative centers or college towns. So had many professors, PhD students, High end dress makers, top saxophone player in New Orleans, artists of all kinds.

I am biased I am tired of innovative and creative churches. What this at least meant in Oklahoma is watered down crap. There is a billboard that states "Hate Church? So do we." goes on to state how this is a church for people who hate church.

So if what Eric Mason is doing represents the new innovative and creative church planters are doing then more power to him. Because why does church have to be like going to a funeral?