The Institute (協会)

Jules & Ezekiel 25:17 sick?

to quote Sufjan:

And in my best behavior
I am really just like him
Look beneath the floorboards
For the secrets I have hid

ugh, I knew somebody was going to go there. I so bored, worn out, and tired of that constant redirection. . .sufjan secrets did not physically rape his own daughter, father 7 children, and imprison the incestuous family for 24 years. Can we stick with the story for just a moment without getting all hyper-spiritual. Why can't we just pay attention? I don't get it. It's not the same in many respects and I hope no one ever would walk up to this man's raped and molested daughter and say something like "well, your Dad's not any worse than any other guy because of his thoughts."

Can we care about the woman and her real, felt pain for just a moment. Sheesh!

dude, the story is ALL OVER THE NEWS. it's constantly in my face. it makes me sad. it makes me angry. it also makes me reflect a little. sufjan's poetry helps me reflect and process such tragedies.

you asked for thoughts. so there you go. what does "stick with the story" mean anyway? ok then, umm yeah, that sucks. that's about as bad as it gets. what else is there to say?

I'm with you, Anthony, on OT village justice. I'm reminded of a horrific crime that occurred to a classmate of my younger brother's, and thinking "you know, I'd be willing to throw the switch on Old Sparky for these guys."

I don't get how he managed to persuade his wife and tenants (!!!!) to ignore what they heard, smelled, saw, and so on for all those years. Mom never once thought about bringing the police around to check on her missing daughter?

It is very hard for me to respond to/think about this situation with the correct world view...

Is it bad that I have already thought of several ways to inflict pain on this guy?

Anthony - I am down for visiting this guy... We can get some schnizel and bier while we are there as well!!!!

I feel so bad for the daughter and the "animal children" as the media is calling them (the ones that never saw the light of day... Talk about a hopeless situation!

There has got to be something else going on here. I can't even comprehend how this could go unnoticed. The kids never made any noise? This is unbelievable.

Yeah, bobw, makes sense. I didn't get your context there.

Between this and the mormon fundamentalist cult thing, we've had more than enough news of abused children. :(

I read somewhere that this guys wife claims she didn't know. I'm calling bs on that; there is absolutely no way your husband can keep your own daughter and grand kids locked up for 24 years raping them and you never realize something is majorly amiss.
Hell, even Dr. Laura tells her callers that if you were abused by one parent, don't think for a second the other parent had no part; these things don't happen in a vacuum.

This is tragic beyond belief. You can't get a much clearer picture of our depravity. How do we think through these things? How do we detest the deplorable and be moved with compassion, yet recognize "but by the grace of God...?"

This makes me sick.

I don't think the point of the Sufjan lyric is that this man is no worse than any other man, but rather that every man is equally capable of such evil outside of God's miraculous grace. We are all capable of this unbelievable evil. Every one of us. That's the point. Not to denigrate the atrocity of this, but to remind us that our sin nature is no better.

My thoughts on this story? He obviously enjoys subjugating women: his wife was submissive to orders to never enter the basement, not even to bring him coffee? She never questioned why she wasn't allowed in his supposed drafting room for 24 YEARS? Um. I could be wrong, but this sounds like doormatage. (if i can make up a word) This is a man with control issues of the deepest level. It makes me ever thankful for God's grace. And it makes me lift my heart in prayer for this broken woman....

Anthony - Couple other details - The family says they didn't know. It sounds like he was a really domineering father and husband so his family didn't really question him. He kidnapped his daughter when she was 18 and locked her in the cellar then made her write a note saying she'd run away. So the family thought she had run away.

There were a few tenants of the building that said they heard strange noises from the basement but Fritzl told them it was the hot water heater.

Last thing, the maximum sentence for rape is 15 years in Austria. There's a chance he'll get charged with negligence leading to death in the case of his oldest child with his daughter (she's in a medically induced coma at the moment) if she doesn't make it. But if she does make it, the maximum sentence he can get is 15 years. It's led to a massive call for a more Americanized version of sentencing because apparently the European laws are more lax.

Last thing - on the "spiritualizing" things: I agree that it's helpful to remember that we are sinful to keep a good perspective but I think you're (Anthony) right when you say we can do that waaayyy too much and end up minimizing horrific crimes.

It seems important though hard to remember that underneath the obvious atrocities lie a multitude of horrific less visible issues, as you've alluded to 'dormattage' and power-hunger.

May our prayers be as passionate as our horror.

This reminds me of teh South Park NAMBLA episode that was on last night "Dude, you have sex with children!!!"

No matter how hard we try to identify with this man, what he did was just horrible and as Christians we should be outraged. Heck, the psalms are full of outrage aginst evil like this.

May our prayers be as passionate as our horror...

WOW that was fantastic... I think I will use it as my signature on my outgoing eMails... Thank you Rachel

Yes, the maximum sentence for rape is 15 years--multiply that by the 7 children he's had by his daughter.

Even so, this cries out for Mosaic justice.

Take a close, hard look at the photo of the father. Notice the slightly raised curl (sneer?) on the right-hand corner of his mouth (left side when viewing photo)... this man is NOT mentally sick. He's VERY shrewd and calculating. I don't buy the story that he's "mental." This man knew EXACTLY what he was doing -- plotting, planning, traveling and having fun, socially engaging with others, all the while having this dirty secret...

Imagine going on a vacation to Thailand, knowing full well that his daughter was locked up and might need more food or medical attention! Who was supposed to "attend" to her if something happened to him, God forbid? Imagine if something did? What if he had a heart attack and died? His daughter and children could have died there! No one heard screams or other sounds from there because it was soundproofed so well.

Remember, this guy was a professional, a mechanical drawing engineer! He knew electronics and how to rig a door with a passcode! You have to know blueprint design and have a high mechanical aptitude and the mindset to create and execute such an elaborate plan.

Did I mention the word "execute?" This is one case where I would fully sanction it (if it were possible he would even receive such a sentence).

Right now, though, I'd want his punishment to be the same as he created for his family - solitary confinement with NO chance of seeing daylight -- EVER! Jailtime for 15 years is way too lenient! How about 15 years x 7, as someone suggested?

If the daughter ever changes her name, he would most likely find out what it is anyway because the wife is communicating with the daughter and I'm sure, if she was brainwashed that much by her husband, who knows if she can be trusted?

I mean, wouldn't your curiosity be piqued if your husband told you not to go into the basement? Wouldn't you know your own home? Wouldn't you investigate - anything? And, what about this son who was seen entering the basement?

What about the children who were adopted by he and his wife -- the children who were told they were supposedly "abandoned" by their mother? Didn't they have ANY memories at all about that basement? Wouldn't they have mentioned something to the man's wife about living IN that basement?

This upsets me so much, I can't express enough the outrage I feel! My heart goes out to the daughter and her children. They will never be the same. This man is evil!