The Institute (協会)

The problem with us, and the rest of humanity, who at least acknowledge the institution of marriage, is our framework.

We have no idea what marriage is about, and our framework prevents us from ever getting it.

The enemy is so influential, and the church isn't doing anything about it, cause the church's framework is warped.

I wonder if it would be possible for a Jonathan & Sarah Edwards to exist today.

but...but...but...Anthony! The bible says to not be unequally yoked! I'm just quoting the bible!

if you're in it for yourself or an "easy" life, dont marry anyone with any issues.

Women without issues are non-existent. I agree with bobw and piggy back by adding that we are taught culturally and in our churches to view marriage through a lens of optimistic self-centeredness. The church rarely tells congregants that marriage is the most difficult, messy, relational shit storm that a person will ever encounter. So much more to say.

Paul, yeah I totally think you're on to something. Could give us about the church's warped perspective.

Shawn, remember there's no presuppositionless exegesis;) Yeah, that yoked passage seems to be a lost teaching OR it really is true that "pain trumps theology"

I understand the emotions behind the quote, and even the counsel you received Anthony. But I have to say that its naive to think that you can actually find someone who doesn't have "issues", and to place that kind of a bar on a person, well...can we actually say that we are both 1) loving others as Christ loved (embracing & enfolding the "other" & "enemy"), and 2) living/walking by faith, and not by typical "master of my own domain" mentality that plagues N.American Christianity?

Bottom line - everyone is messed up, and if marriage is like all institutions, then MISuse and ABuse does not negate the validity & rightness of the institution.

?? Christ certainly does sustain marriage through His Word, does He not?

Yes, too many couples undo that work by dancing too closely to the world, but....

The non-Christian marriages that follow those principles and do well, do so because they are inadvertently acting like Christ. Further, as they are both non-Christians in the marriage, they do not have the struggle of spiritual division. A believing spouse working on a marriage with an unbelieving spouse is a whole different set of variables than two non-Christians married and practicing biblical marriage principles without knowing that is what they are doing.

And Archie, from what I've seen, there aren't men without issues, either. Humans have issues. *shrug*

I can certainly hear and understand the pain in this comment. Marriage has proven a lot more difficult than it once looked from the outside, and the temptation to despair is strong.

But seriously, who *doesn't* have issues? I think one of the purposes of marriage is to bring out our issues. At that point, either our issues will us and our partner if we try to bury them like good evangelicals, or we can learn endurance, longsuffering, grace, forgiveness, etc. The latter path is the hard one. We often do a bad job in the church of confronting our weakness, our brokenness, our issues, and the crap in our lives, and I think that's part of why we don't deal with it in our marriages either.

But if marriage is the metaphor God chose to represent his relationship with the Church, the most important relationship of all, then who are we to say "it doesn't work, and Christ won't make a difference." It seems more likely that we've imbibed a warped view of what marriage is about, and how to make it work, then asked Christ to bless it.

For the record, I'm pretty screwed up, and wonder a lot if I made a mistake in getting married. But I see that it's possible: 3 couples in my church made it to 26+ years (one of them to 50, and strong) this week, and my church can't be the only one. I just don't think giving into despair gets us anywhere. If we're to be courageous, or aggressive, or whatever word we've agreed Men should be, maybe our first mission should be to rescue marriage, not leave it behind because it's badly wounded.

A single, non-Christian friend (who knows I am a Christian) told me he would never date a Christian girl. His reason? Because single women in the church got there because their issues and insecurites gave them one of two options: become a Christian or a stripper.

I have to say, I think he has a point.

I must confess being torn on this issue. I am 35 and have been married for 13 years. While it is not true that "each year is better than the next," the trend toward increasing honesty and sacrifice is encouraging and it seems like our marriage is flourishing. To say Jesus has NOT made a difference seems ridiculous to me. Yes, that is anecdotal, but it is what it is. So, I think Jesus works powerfully in marriage.

On the other hand, I would probably give my two sons the exact same advice the Elder gave to Anthony - do not pursue a relationship with a woman who has obvious emotional issues.

I would also give my three daughters the advice to stay away from insecure men who grew up in fatherless homes. Of course, had my wife followed that advice, we would never have gotten married.

This issue is deep with sin and grace. One of my seminary prof's made the argument that the Old Testament words for "marriage" and "sanctification" had the same root family. I believe it. Marriage is good but it is not easy.

One of the commentors mentioned re-framing our marriage paradigm. I think we could do some good work here in the Body of Christ - helping one another see marriage as the creation of a new redemptive unit rather than a long date with extra benefits.

Thought I had to say something. Marriage is one of the hardest things you can put yourself through. The flip side of this is it shows you your need of Christ.

I have no fantasy of what marriage is. My family got dealt a hand that I would never wish on my worst enemy. My mother was sick and my father was absent. This brought their marriage to its knees many times. Friends tell my father to divorce my mom. My siblings and I went through a hell few of our peers have felt. Me personally I lost control of my mind and marched down the same path my mother marched before me. This was a hell that was our life for 25 years.

Yet this hell this utter bringing us near the edge of destruction over and over again was a blessing. Speaking for my father and I our faith is stronger then it ever has been. This is the scary part not because he saved us from hell, but because he put us through it over and over again watching each idol die a painful death. How does this relate to marriage? Paul says to love your wife as Christ loves the church. What does the church do? It is a whore that will do anything and everything to hurt its lover. Yet Christ still loves. We are not God so us men will fail over and over again to show this love, but that is our calling in marriage. The good times, the fun, the feel good love that is all a glimpse of heaven, but we are called as broken men to love broken women.

Marriage is not easy and never will be. When we start to realize this maybe our marriages will have a standing chance in a culture where it is meaningless.

Shawn,

Thanks for graciously showing what a simpleton I am. I see now you are right. Quoting the Bible is dumb and not helpful in understanding our sin or God's righteousness.

yeah, I'm an ass...sorry dude. I refrained once, but I just can't get over myself.

and that's not sarcasm...I'm sorry for that smartass remark.

hey Shawn...we're cool bro...

I'm an uber-prick myself most of the time...

Guy Incognito-
Could you clairfy?
Wow. I'm a single, 32 year old woman. Yes, I have issues. Yes, I follow Christ. That, or be a stripper? Um. What the #$%*?!
I can hear a non-Christian saying that. But a believer actually thinking there is a "point" to that statement is beyond discouraging. It's ridiculous.

Mandy, my apologies if I offended you. I did not say my friend is right 100% of the time; I just stated he has a point. I know many single ladies in the church who do not fit in the “stripper or Christian” category.

To clarify, what my friend meant is that a lot of the same fundamental issues (abuse, neglect, daddy issues, poor self-esteem, etc) that lead to self-destructive behavior like being a stripper are the same issues that drive women to the church. So to my friend, Christian women are damaged goods. And I have to say that I see where he is coming from (in some cases, again I painted with a very broad brush).

Does that help?

Guy,
Your friend is an idiot.
Ok, I'm kidding.

A broad brush indeed. I get what you're saying. But it's universally true. For both sexes.
Absolutely, there are a myriad of issues that lead men and women on a search for fulfillment. Then again, I know a large amount of folks, who outwardly appear to be emotionally healthy and stable, sitting in church with me, who Christ has called out of their sin. Along with the rest of us.

If women with issues turn out to be Christians or strippers, what does that say about men? Christians or workaholic-man-whores? Really, aren't we all "damaged goods"?

Maybe so. But at least for those of who have hope in Christ, God redeems us. Whether that's from self-righteousness or a job that involves a pole.

Honestly, I am almost so disgusted that I want to completely ignore this subject, and at the same time, feel strongly compelled to comment even if simply to apologize. I sincerely respect men for the pain they have felt as a result of the poor behavior and corrupted identity 20-30somethings women have made of themselves. As a 22 year-old woman, it just short of enrages me to think that this reputation is what some of you might see if we crossed paths on the proverbial "sidewalk". A small fraction of this is a personal frustration of being put in a box "when you don't even know me" type thing. But most of it is because of a true passion for freeing people to live out who they were created to be.

Not only have men been feminized by the pressures of Christian culture and abandoned by their fathers, and women thrown into a tornado of confusion about what their role looks like and abandoned by those feminized men, and not only has all of that caused a viscious cycle of failed marriages, but current 20-30somethings have been given such a slim chance of even forming a biblically sound and appealing view of the possibility of a real relationship in marriage that they have abandoned it altogether and perhaps even lost clarity in observing or appropriately interacting with the opposite sex at all.
(Really, really long sentence. If you followed that on the first try, kudos.)

All of that is to say, some of us 20-30something females actually wholeheartedly desire to follow Christ and follow through on that, AND are real human beings - not afraid to dive into real life, feel that words are meant to be used, and actually encourage their male friends to be the wild creatures they were created to be! Of course, all of that is within the realm of freely living out what it actually means to live for Christ - which is definitely messy sometimes.

Agreed, we are all damaged (hello? sin...?) and need to live in God's grace as a result. Maybe we are afraid of real relationships, not only for the effort and vulnerability they require, but because of the actual pain they cause. Maybe we don't want to admit our "damage" or face up to the "damage" of someone else.

Should you marry someone with obvious emotional issues? (For once in my life) I think this is a gray area. My immediate response is no. But I guess it depends on the issues, one's personal efforts to cope with their issues (in a healthy way, of course), and one's efforts to either face up the reality that they might not be able to live with the fact that the other has an issue or to deal with it accordingly. I think the difference in the no or the yes is whether or not the issues are being dealt with, if at all, in a healthy way. Is there any effort to change or cope or modify necessary behaviors? And, on the other side, are you capable of living life with someone who has to make those changes, cope in certain ways, or work through behavior modification?

I think that's all I got for now.
P.S. Anthony, I have to say, I still really just want to call you Mr. Bradley - a la... what was it... 9th grade Bible class?