The Institute (協会)

...daddy issues. check.

tru dat. I wonder if it's good to warn guys not to marry women with "daddy issues"?

I think my advisor in grad school was 35 or under when he started an affair--and his wife worked in the same office. I can't think of any other young married people I know who have had affairs.

I don't know if I'm just not looking, or if the people I hang out with differ with the ones you hang with, or what, but there's something very different in our experiences.

We just caught wind of something similar here where the wife left. Older than the peri-30 group, however. Still devastating. And I don't know well enough to say anything about causation.

anthony...good luck finding a girl w/o them, honestly. or a guy, for that matter.

jackass fathers.

Here's a thought: The church beats men up over sexuality all the time (sexual support groups, sermons against pornography and homosexuality, etc), but rarely ever addresses female sexuality-good or bad. While there is a lot to be said for "daddy issues", could it also be lack of mentoring and/or teaching our sisters in this area?

Shawn, contrary to the prevailing views expressed in the comments on this blog, lots of fathers are good men who do a good job with their families.

I look forward to meeting them, then. 29 years has shown me precious few, try as I have to find one worth looking up to.

bubba, a couple of things for clarication: (1) the post in about 35-year-olds in the CHURCH not at grad school (check the title again) and (2) I really didn't mean 35-yr-olds in general. I meant today's 35 and under crowd. Not the crows 20 or 30 years ago when you were in grad school. I should have been more clear about that. I meant 35 as of 2008 not 1978.

yeah, shawn, I agree my experience has been that it's less than 3% if they can be found. That's just an guess from experience

I married a girl with daddy issues, but I had daddy issues too, so perhaps we cancelled one another out? I'm also a big fan of grace.

wow...grace...wonderful. i'll remember that.

you let me know how that was anything but a simplistic jab at someone in the hard situation of close-to-or-actual infidelity.

hehe..bert...what is it you do that makes people think you're so freakin' old, Oldguy VonAncient?

"Do men in the church under 35 cheat?" Yeah, I'd say about 70-80% do on the internet with porn. Jesus calls that adultery too.

Of 3 broken marriages of twenty-somethings (in the church) that I can think of right now, 1 was the guy cheating, 1 was the guy abusing, and 1 was the girl cheating. The pairing of two sinners always has the potential for an ugly outcome.

I still recommend marriage to kingdom-minded Christian guys. My wife has been a big part of pushing me to pursue righteousness. Plus, we are friends with lots of great, interesting, faithful, kingdom-minded single women who would be great wives to men who are man enough to pursue them. The funny (sad) thing is, the more strongly kingdom-driven my women friends are, the less they are pursued. What's up with that?

I would rather marry a healthy non-Christian than an unhealthy CHristian. Seriously! Now granted, that is a false dichotomy , but my feelings on that illustrate a point. I have not seen in all my 31 years of growing up in Christian grade, middle, and high school, growing up in the Church my whole life and eventually ending up in seminary. I have never seen "CHrist" make a REAL difference in all the marriages i have run into or families I have been involved with.

To put it another way I dont see any difference btwn a couple that works on their marriage and made wise choices during dating, how and when to marry and really worked at staying healthy and just staying married, vs. Christian couples who do the same. So it seems to me being in a CHristain marriage doesnt mean anything "overall". I think it can mean a lot if you value it a lot and your wife values it a lot. However the value cant be on the title thats placed above your head and Christ is never going to come "save" your marriage or "keep you together". YOU keep or YOU save it. I know there are some amazing stories out there on how God saved this relationship from such and such. Well, you can save your extraordinary story for our singles group at church on friday night,You will be the 10th one this year. Or go write another book like all those other schmucks out there who end up peddling their fantasies or miracles on Christian radio as if it were holy water. Then all the stay at home moms, from being manipulated to feel all good inside, rush out at lunch time to go save their marriage by reading it.

Until we start looking at marriage without this gnostic view of Christian marriage, and stop acting like "Christ" makes marriages work, then I think incidents of cheating, divorce etc. might have a shot at declining.

Memo to the porn vs actual cheating is equal crowd. ITS NOT THE SAME THING! Lets leave porn out of this.

3 people are involved in a real cheating case

only 2 are involved in porn

And Nate to your point, why has not this poor ole negelcted girl told her husband that he is not being nice, or friendly or whatever?

Here is what I find to be the typical story or at least 1 part of the story in almost every adultery case concerning WOMEN... they marry men that dont exemplify the qualities they want. Then when their husband doesnt turn into the guy they wanted they complain that he is the one not "working" on the marriage and then they are so weak as to get comfort or feel good about themselves b/c some loser with no morals and no set of balls "hears them out" or tells them that "she is beautiful" ? What? WHen are we going to actually hold women accountable for making bad choices instead of making excuses and always giving emotional or rational reasons behind it? Seriously no more free passes for dishonesty, disloyalty, and for not confronting their husbands! The guy has no clue that he is doing anything wrong and then BAM," you should have shown your wife more attn." Give me a break. LIsten, if I never knew that not putting my dish in the dishwasher pissed my wife off and I still did it, then I am an ass. But for her to be angry at me all these years for being inconsiderate for not putting the dish away... well screw her! you cant hold someone accountable for disliked or poor actions if they dont have a clue that they are disliked or poor. This isnt "strictly rational" vs emotional, this is right vs wrong. I dont give a rip if men are more rational, (which a) I dont believe and b) most men I know are very very emotional, more so than most women), and women are more emotional or whatev, no one gets a free pass. Women dont get a free pass b/c you are/were "so young". No free passes for "I am/was confused" and no free passes for not speaking straightforward b/c I am a female. None of these are excuses which should be tolerated.

The female equivalent to porn is: porn

If I were married and caught my husband repeatedly looking at, etc., to porn, it would hurt me as much as "actual" cheating. Maybe more. Cheating is rarely about the sex. Porn generally is. That said, it works the other way around. I do agree with Stork that the female equivalent to porn is porn. It may be written porn as opposed to visual, but it's still porn. And porn is still a form of cheating....

My question: has anyone, including the husbands, asked the women why they cheated? I confess that I have a fear of cheating. My fear is generated from a fear of being with someone who doesn't stimulate me mentally and emotionally. IE, marrying someone whose interests I enjoy but who never makes the effort to share my interests, leaving me alone in that, and eventually seeking someone else's company.

Finally, I would again point out that adultery is rarely just about the sex even with men. These women aren't cheating because they're "sexually aggressive," they're cheating because of perceived unmet needs, or deep insecurity leading to sabotage of the marriage.

And Stork, do not ever underestimate the power of listening to a woman and telling her she is beautiful. There is nothing more alluring than a man, even a spineless sneak of a man, continuing to tell a woman in various ways that she is beautiful and worth listening to. This is not an excuse, but husbands would do well to realize this and act on it. A woman needs to feel beautiful and she needs to be listened to, not because the man is forced to listen or listens grudgingly, but because he listens gladly. Just a thought.

I was pretty much convinced from late highschool until roughly a year ago that Christian marriage was just stupid.

I grew up seeing only about two Christian marriages that left any lasting impression on me that a Christian marriage could work. And as I've gone through college, the number of my friends who've married and either later down the road realized their wife was a 12 yr old in a 20 yr old body or had their wife cheat on them is 100%. (Only recently have I seen several Christian marriages that I'd consider good.)

Part of it I think is the stupidity in the Christian subculture where we take a few descriptive Bible verses and tell teens and young adult women that there is "the one" that God has planned for them. Marriage brings out the reality that you need to choose to love the person you're married to and sacrifice for them more so than dating.
Finding a person to marry in the Christian subculture is more about finding someone who provides euphoric dates than finding someone with common life goals, who you are mutually attracted to, and are equally yoked (in the sense that one of you can't believe that praying in tongues is a must while the other believes praying in tongues is demonic).

And it (should) goes without saying that women can't expect their husbands to directly fix their daddy/sexual/relationship baggage. Paying for a good Christian consoler (eew, that's another nasty topic) may very well be the best thing a husband can do for his wife in many instances.

Of course, this is just the 10 cents of a single, 20 yr old guy. :)

Dram u r right, i dont underestimate it. I am a pros pro at it. believe me. I was emotionally substituted for a husband by my mom until 25, I was sandwitched btwn 2 sisters and had to be the emotional male in both of their lives, my aunt has been divorced three times and used my "niceness" to fill her up and make me feel important. My Grandma was so willing to show me "extra" attention b/c I was so "loving", unlike my strict immigrant German grandfather.

Honestly its natural in me, I know it better than most and I actually like doing it. I love seeing women happy and treated special and sitting and talking for hrs is one of my fav pastimes, like every day :)

My post was based on my friends exp and my sisters relation to guys they date. It was also to say, and I think you would agree, its not an excuse. Hey Miss emotionally neglected... sorry your husband never compliments you. A) He either didnt when you dated him and you ignored it and married him anyways. B) Did it and now doesnt so something adverse is going on in his heart or you need to confront him about it. Whatever it is dont be so weak to allow some loser to make you feel special. I mean have some spine. Same w/guys who cheat. I know your wife such and such but dude have some spine, work at it and if you married an egotistical maniac then you need to get a divorce. I am an advocate of divorce btw, when people are self indulged narcissists. Mistakes are ok.

Kyle, welcome to my world. You are dead on brother. The teaching of this fairy tale wedding/relationship to women in the church has got to stop. Honesty has to be put bac in there. Thats why non-christian chicks are so much cooler. They arent expecting anything out of you that matches up with their "idea" of a Christian man and it totally allows you to be yourself. Most young Christian women will have the Holy Shi* bag hit them in the face when the get married and realize God aint saving their marriage and that their husband is just a a dude who sins and brings home the bacon. But probably he is a great guy who loves God and loves her deeply, but this is real life, not a Christian fairy tale.

Hey Stork, thanks for the memo, but my Bible still reads:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Maybe you don't care what the Bible says--I don't know you well enough--but I hope the people involved in this discussion will listen to the Bible for principles of a healthy marriage rather than listen to either you or me.

The reason porn is the same as adultery is this: (dramaturge was almost right) both porn and extra-marital sex are almost never about they sex. They are about idolatry. Men and women cheat for the same reason. They are idol worshipers. Whether the idol is pleasure, control, security, an idealistic view of marriage and relationships, or whatever, sex outside of marriage, outside of the God-given context and purpose for sex, is an attempt to obtain from that idol what can only come from God through Christ.

Stork, I'm not sure who you were responding to, and I don't know who was suggesting that women get "free passes." Every person in every relationship is both sinner and sinned against. Nobody is ever blameless, because nobody ever fully loves his neighbor (i.e., spouse) as he loves himself. That said, nobody is ever excused for the guilt of his sin--forgiven maybe, but not excused. So, whether it is the wife who cheats with the pool boy because her husband is a workaholic, or the husband who looks at porn at work all day because he found his dad's stash when he was 8 years old, nobody is excused from the consequences of their sin just because they can point to reasons for it.

On another note, just to try to offer some balance to the anecdotal evidence, observing strong and healthy Christian marriages was one of the things that drew me to Christ. As one whose parents were divorced when I was very young, I had a number of issues that screwed up my view of marriage. But as I witnessed the relationships in a number of Christian marriages during the time I was being converted to Christ in my early college years, they helped me see that there was real truth and power in the Gospel to overcome the inherent difficulties of two sinners united.

Now, that evidence doesn't "prove" anything, but it can't be discounted out of hand, just like the stories of bad Christian marriages shouldn't be discounted. However, I'd say that the biblical picture of sinners in the process of being redeemed through Christ by grace accounts for both the good and bad of Christian marriages. And if Jesus was raised from the dead, then I believe that He can "make marriages work," even for his people who are hiding idols in their tent.

Stork,

You want the woman to bear more of the responsibility for picking a bad husband. Fine. What about a man's responsibility in picking a wife? Maybe guys shouldn't marry women who have a naive or idealistic view of marriage. Maybe guys should make sure their prospective spouse isn't looking for a "Christian fairy tale." I made sure my wife knew the various ways I was a scumbag before we got married. She knew what she was getting into and so did I with her.

Kyle,
As someone 10 years ahead of you on the journey, let me tell you there are many great single women in the church. They, like you, don't want their spouse to be a project or a savior. They just want a companion, partner, encourager, in their work for the kingdom. If you're called to singleness, fine. But I'm telling you they are out there.

nick...everything's adultery, man. I've listened to Keller too. That doesn't mean that actual adultery and lustful thoughts are the same. I'm not making excuses for pornography, but your equation isn't quite complicated enough.

crap...that's "everything's IDOLATRY, man..."

It's not my equation, man. I'm just quoting what Jesus said. You guys are responding like I came up with this idea out of thin air. Jesus said it. Your beef is with Him, not me. If you don't care what He said, let me know, and I'll take a different approach. But my assumption was that as men in the church we all cared about what Jesus said.

Look, I realize that the consequences of looking at porn are often different than actually going out and having sex with a woman. But they come from the same place in the heart.

And consider this: Stork said that "3 people are involved in a real cheating case...only 2 are involved in porn." Well he might be right about the first part, but he's way off on the second part. There's: the man, his wife, the woman (or women, or women and men) in the images, the guy who took the picture, the guy who maintains the website, and on and on. When you indulge in porn, you are supporting a multi-billion-dollar industry that is mixed up with organized crime, prostitution, sexual enslavement, statutory rape, illegal drugs, and on and on.

Until men in the church realize that porn isn't a harmless indulgence that Jesus will forgive them for anyway and won't harm anyone if their wives and sons and daughters don't find out, our marriages will continue to be threatened. And it's not that just quitting looking at porn will solve all the problems. We as men in the church need Jesus by His grace and power to tear down the idol we keep in our heart that promises some reward from looking at porn.

"i'm just quoting what jesus said"

alright...

"there is no such thing as presuppositionless exegesis" --richard pratt, former seminary professor of mine.

Stork, dude thanks for the honesty. There are lots of guys out there that feel the same way you do but wouldn't have the courage to actually admit it.

Kyle, you're awesome, thanks for the honesty!! I totally understand where you're coming from.

I now understand better why lots and lots of guys who struggle with porn can't get help in the church because some Christians don't understand a dude's brain.

Porn has very little, if anything, to do with lust (Drama) and grounding it in idolatry might be closer (nick) but the fact that a guy often goes to porn because he feels emasculated (when his wife cuts him down, or he generally feels like a looser in life for various reasons) completely misses the point. The simplistic (and some would say naive) "lust" conversation or the "idolatry-explains-every-sin" reduction isn't going to help guys wrestle with questions of their standing before God as a man. I don't know any reputable counselors who would reduce porn to those two things. Adventures in missing the point. Whew, I wish porn was just about lust or idolatry, that would be very easy to deal with compared to the core issue of identity.

Apples and oranges in major ways. My friend's marriage just ended because his wife was committing adultery. If she had just had a porn problem, there would not be divorce lawyers involved. Distinctions are friends.

I'm sure there are other issues involved in porn, but there is a lot about lust involved in a lot of cases. I suppose it's all about the motivation, ie single 21 year old looking at pinups vs. married guy. But then it all really comes down to a self-control issue. I completely get the issues like emasculation, etc. I was perhaps over generalizing. Being transparent, my struggles with pornography and pornographic things has little to do with my fears concerning future fidelity. Perhaps men are unbelievably different, but I don't think they're that different.

Also, I don't know that the best response to adultery is divorce.

I think men in the church do cheat still. They are just cheating with other men now and not women.

perhaps it has something to do with the disgusting prevalence of passive men amongst the under 35 age group... anthony, aren't you teaching a sunday school class about passive men in the church now? affairs are NEVER one sided.

Rachel has a really good point. While thankfully I've not seen too many marriages break up in adultery, I do know that the wives of strong, leading men in the Biblical vein tend to a a lot happier than the wives of passive men.

Talk to the head elder's wife, and see who she sees as the men who really love and lead their wives well. Invite those men into that Sunday School class and have them take the lead for a few weekends.