The Institute (協会)

umm, are you TRYING to offend me? I know you dont really know me, but wow, you couldnt get much closer to my musical heart.

yes, I play mandolin. yes, I play in church. yes, we play folk kinda stuff. yes, we do new tunes to old hymns. and yes, people (male and female) at least say they appreciate it.

anyway, I guess you're not into the RUF music scene, but why does this have to be a girl/guy thing?

what would you suggest as a help in this area? stick with the old hymns? do all Chris Tomlin stuff? or just leave out the mandolins? I'm confused.

"It worked for Creed". LOL

Lyrically it's trite, cheap, and sentimental. Musically it's trite, cheap, and sentimental.

Democracy and "getting along" dictate that everyone has gifts to contribute. Consequently it's unloving/mean to point out when they do not, in fact, have those gifts.

Un-relatedly: BobW can you imagine anyone ever telling you any different? Of course not. It doesn't mean you aren't good, it just means their opinion doesn't count for anything.

The first sign that your music might not be good is that you're playing it in Church.

bobw, ahhh, nope, I didn't have you in mind at all. Just looking at some big picture stuff in white conservative evangelical circles.

I'm not really a part of any music scene. My church tradition is the black church and its music (and in the black church we have our own issues). I was raised with black gospel music, traditional hymns( and hymns set to music styles indigenous to the black American cultural contexts). This is my music of choice and preference. But since I'm not a consumeristic Christian I'm ok to be in less desirable contexts.

All this acoustic guitar, Celtic, Euro-folky, stuff is still new to me in many ways. It's not a part of the church culture from which I was birth so I have no scenes actually. I'm still learning to appreciate.

In the black church there is nothing contextual (indigenous even) and folky. I remains curious about how Irish/Scottish folks sounds were chosen are the best way to reach current contexts in America (a culture that is DOMINATED by Hip Hop and Country music). When I think "contextual" or "indigenous" my mind does not default to any place near Western Europe.

My guess is that the guys that like that stuff at your church are not blue-collar, don't drive pickup trucks, and beer snobs and don't keep their houses stocked with Bud Light (which represents most men in America). They're probably part of the cultural elite who graduated from college, etc. And if a guy didn't like it do he think he'd actually tell you to your face?

In the black church there are other reasons why men have checked out that are related to the music. LOTS of other reasons.

Josiah, when Cartman said "It worked for Creed," I almost fell on the floor. LOL!

Well, just so we're fair to all involved: the sin of trite, cheap, and sentimental music isn't limited to any one tradition.

If it pleases the court, I present to you:

We lift our hands in the sanctuary
Wash, Rinse, Repeat X37

Anthony, I only wish a College Degree gave one entrance to the "cultural elite".

JQ: I know what you mean, but I'm not so sure that I fully agree. I guess I'm not that cynical. if people really didnt like it, there would be ways for folks to say (or not say) so.

Mark: I also play in my living room. and on the bridge at times. does that help? it is really sad that Church music = bad in some people's minds, but I hope you realize it doesnt have to be that way. but if you're just a troll, then please ignore this.

Anthony: I appreciate the thoughtfulness in your response. why not say it that way in the first place? I know that adding all kinds of qualifiers doesnt get people's attention as quickly though. and yes, we are laden not only with college graduates, but college professors for that matter. we/they too need to (non-tritely) praise Jesus as much as the non-"elite". you give the impression that this is a bad thing?

also, if I may humbly submit to you an example of our mandolin-laden church music for your listening (dis)pleasure: http://www.wiegersfamily.com/spikenard/Spikenard-CrudeHomeRecordingsVol1.zip check track 1 for a wee bit of a groove.

First off, I know a guy that beat the crap out of Scott Stapp when he we went to Lee. It's probably the funniest fight-story I've ever heard. And yes. Scott had it coming to him.

Second, about 90% of South Park's criticism of Christianity in the U.S. is right on the mark - especially in this case. And the creators shouldn't feel the need to repent because they speak the truth.

The Christian music industry is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on a 'market base' - and trust me, it's all about the dollars to these guys. Individuals write/mimic popular music that is generic, unimaginative and boring. In many cases, the 'artist' is more concerned with his/her own ego than glorifying God. I find it shameful that this passes muster in evangelical circles.

As far as church music goes, instrumentation shouldn't matter. I've been moved by choral music. I've been moved by music of the folky persuasion. And I've also been turned off by both.

If you are a musician and you want to glorify God with your gifts, you should create/perform music from your heart that is honest, sincere and the absolute best you can make it. Anything less is blasphemy.

As someone who prefers Hardcore/Metal/Progressive/Industrial... insert a thousand other adjectives here since no one knows what I'm talking about anyway, I have come to accept that I will never hear my music played in church. There are just too many styles and too many tastes and too huge of a generation gap for any church to be able to please everyone. I listen to the folk/hymn/indelible grace stuff because there is nothing else out there that focuses me on Christ. There are a few (very few) good "Christian" bands, but their lyrics tend to be more about the girl at youth group than about God.
I think the best hope churches have is to simplify things (no cheesy 80's performance oriented stuff), focus on corporate singing (not the emotional lead singer showing off). Use mandolins and acoustics or whatever, just keep it in in a singable range and let the congregation shine over the individual. And above all, avoid lyrics that compromise men's heterosexuality. If you replace Jesus' name with Bill or Jim and the song doesn't sound gay then it might work. Contra:

"Bill, lover of my soul, let me to thy bosom fly."
"Jim, I am so in love with you."
"In the secret, in the quiet place, in the stillness you are there Brian."
"Bob you are the air I breathe"

It's a good test.

Bob, I wasn't saying that there wasn't a way for people to communicate if they didn't like the music. I'm saying that even if they did have a way, they wouldn't say anything for very understandable reasons, such as offending the musicians or offending somebody who DID like the music. Further, most folks are smart enough to conclude that even if they didn't like the music and voiced their opinion as such to an Elder or whomever, what would it really accomplish?

It's the natural consequence of the categories of "good" and "bad" (with regards to aesthetics) having been reduced to merely being an issue of opinion and/or personal preference.

What it means is that you could if you wanted to start serving the church the musical equivalent of Big Mac's and no-one would feel comfortable or free to state that they'd prefer something healthy, organic, sustainable, or "fine". Because it's "mean" or "unloving" or "quenching someone's gift" and it's all just a matter of opinion anyway.

I suppose that's cynical, but only if you find it a depressing state of affairs. I tend to think it's pretty freeing, getting to do whatever you want to do.

Music that sounds like prom songs? You mean like AC/DC and ZZtop? (I remember somebody dedicating "sharp dressed man" to his date....even I figured out that that was tacky)

Sorry, couldn't resist, and maybe my high school was a little different. :^)

That said, great point; when I was a "baby Christian" longer ago than I like to admit, there were few forms of music I hated more than "CCM." Maybe (and that's MAYBE) I despised Barry Manilow more. I like hymns and real Gospel music, though.

Maybe it's not as much about genre as it is about real musicality?

Bobw, i completely agree with you. I go to Covenant College, and the majority of songs we sing in RUF and chapel are old hymns set to new music. And I happen to love it...I think mandolins are manly!

bobw, thanks for understanding. I can't qualify everything in a blog post. It would be too long and no nobody would read it.

But things are so bad, in some circles, that many guys need to be deprogrammed first so they can see what the problem is. What I've noticed around the country is that many guys who grew up in the church can't see the problem because the music that appeals primarily to women was conditioned to them as normal. Sadly, they get swallowed up by it without realizing it. The Jesus love ballad becomes "normal." It's amazing. They don't know any better and think what they are currently getting is great.

I can see that. If all you've driven your entire life are Ford cars and someone says, "hey, BMW's are better than Fords," it would make sense for a guy to quip, "what are you talking about my family has Fords. I love those cars." But the guy's never driven a BMW for extended periods of time so he's kind'a clueless.

Moreover, since most conservative churches are designed to meet the needs of 40-year-old women and their children, they are not required to care about the fact that most of the men in their churches are disengaged and that most men won't bring their unchurched guy friends to church. Oh wait, sorry, I was assuming that people (1) had unchurched friends, and (2) would get to know them well enough to bring them to church.

I think this helps to explain why the average American church is 61% female (even in conservative evangelical churches--they happen to really love the music and programs.

Also, like I mentioned, the elitist-types really resonate with much of this Simon and Garfunkle Christian sound as I have seen around the country.

Dave S. said, "As someone who prefers Hardcore/Metal/Progressive/Industrial... insert a thousand other adjectives here since no one knows what I'm talking about anyway, I have come to accept that I will never hear my music played in church."

This is a sad truth, bro. I'm sorry. There are many people who would even argue that that would be an inappropriate form but for some reason the soft, Celtic stuff is ok. Maybe you could go out West or something? Many people seem to be more missionally minded on these issues out there. I dunno. . .

And your test made me laugh!!

Anthony,

Your comment about most conservative churches are designed to meet the needs of 40 year-old women and their children is entirely on the mark. The question is how we got to this point.

In the early 90s I was involved in a parachurch ministry that was trying to put an already nationally known speaker on Christian radio. An insider report from an industry consulting firm shocked everyone: Christian radio was focused primarily on a female market (baby boomers) in the 30-40 year old range. Fast forward to 2008: not much has changed :(

Personally I don't listen to Christian radio even though we have a nationally recognized station that broadcasts from our community. Can't stand the stuff! So, perhaps the real problem is Christian radio and the church is merely mimicking that medium.

Dave S., yeah, I stole that line from Mark Driscoll. I don't have an original bone in my body. That's why I'm always quotin' people!

What you said about radio is also true for the whole Christian music industry (except for teen markets with its Christian--punk, emo, alternative, "Creed Sound). I just can't believe guys can't see this.

You said, "So, perhaps the real problem is Christian radio and the church is merely mimicking that medium."

This is something worth exploring!!

The CCM station here (Charlotte, NC Area) has a listener board that they listen to determine the play list. This is going to be driven toward women because most men will not take the time to sign up for it.

Radio may be the problem, you are what you eat!!

Music is like a container that holds a message. Pop can't hold much. Simon and Garfunkle a bit more. Hip hop has a broad variety of sub-genres, some of which might be able to contain real significant messages. Some hard rock is able to do this, too. Hymns can be a little too heavy.

At least for the average American. We don't think that deeply about things, so hymns feel burdensome.

There are different songs that men and women sing. Women sing to their children to comfort them and to their lovers to satisfy them.
The prom-song to Jesus genre might be of that sort. But does our God need our comfort? Is He satisfied in us?

A man sings different songs in different situations. He may sing a ballad to his lover. He may sing a lullabye to his child. These are legitimate. But there are some songs which are uniquely masculine. War songs, for example. These are the songs that are missing. Songs about issues and ideas and action. Songs that demand a response. Prom-songs to Jesus are an end in themselves. They quench. I want a song that leaves me thirsty. (Call it Halley's Fifth Symphony.) I want a song that lifts my head, in worship, yes, but more in determination and empowerment and affirmation. These are the songs churches hate to sing. They make us uncomfortable.

To something Dave said, "the best hope churches have is to simplify things focus on corporate singing." Right on. Sonds like something straight out of Bonhoeffer's "Life Together" (That's Bonhoeffer, not Goeff Moore...)

For half-decent Christian guy music look to the Choir, DA, the 77's, the Lost Dogs and that crowd. Real men dealing with real life, and holding fast to God.

Nathanael Snow
ndsnow@gmail.com

I love the really old hymns because they speak to me, they teach sound doctrine, and they remind me of why I'm in church. Contrast:

As our Surety we behold thee
Ransoming our souls from death
As the willing offering view thee
Yielding up to God thy breath
In this broken bread we own thee,
Bruised for us and put to shame
And this cup, O Lord, we thank thee
Speaks our pardon through thy name.

With:

Shine, Jesus, Shine, fill the land with the Father's glory . . .

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what the second one means. I do know what the first one means. Guess which one is more likely to get me to church?

It's funny how this post has been hijacked in the comments, and I don't even know if you noticed it, Anthony. You started off critiquing music in the church based upon missional considerations. But, the comments have basically completely devolved into declarations of personal preferences.

Well, if you don't like lots of repetition in your music, stay away from Psalm 136.

If you don't like sentimental music, avoid Psalm 42.

You want songs that "demand a response?" Then almost all of the Psalms must disappoint you (unless the response you are talking about is simply to praise).

And please, you don't know what "Shine, Jesus, shine..." means? Like that song or not, the whole thing is full of biblical imagery/phraseology.

The whole "worship wars" discussion is the most tiresome argument in the church (which is really saying something, because there are SO MANY tiresome arguments). The worst part is, however, that we have gotten nowhere in that discussion.

If every kind of music has at least some people who like it, then unless you are able to show that one kind of music or another is inherently sinful, let's agree that any kind of music is prima facie legitimate for worship. Yes it should be done well. Yes it should be done with proper motives. And yes, it is proper to make contextual considerations and use music in worship that is contextually appropriate for the people to whom you are ministering. Those are all proper missional concerns. Notice that none of those concerns include whether you (or I) "like" the kind of music in church.

I'm not at all a proponent of "exclusive psalmnody" in worship. I do think, however, that the psalms should be our best guide to what new songs should be like. (BTW, singing "new songs" is commanded in Psalm 149.) What you learn from the Psalms is that form is almost irrelevant, except for the fact that diversity is probably to be preferred. Another (and more important) thing you learn from the psalms is what the content should be about. It should mostly be about the Lord's mighty deeds on behalf of His people to redeem them from their sin and the evil in the world.

It's not that it's wrong to create and sing a sentimental song about how much you (or we) love Jesus. There are such songs among the psalms. It's just that those songs should be relatively rare.

While I believe that you are partly right, Anthony, about the problem of young men not liking the musical style of much of church worship. I would say that the greater problem is that the content of the music causes them to believe that Christianity is placing an unbearable burden upon them rather than announcing freedom because of Christ. When every song is about loving, following, and serving Jesus with all your might, what are you supposed to do/think/feel when you know that you are a wretched sinner who barely loves, rarely follows, and hardly serves Jesus at all? I honestly don't know if it matters that much what style of music we have in our churches (as long as the style is done well), if we could only make sure that our music declares the gospel and not the law.

Hey Anthony,

Is it safe to say then that the issue is not so much about INSTRUMENTATION as much as ARRANGEMENT, and/or SUBSTANCE (Musically and lyrically)? For example, listen to some groups like Bela Fleck, Dave Matthew's Band or Nickel Creek (All either incorporate Wind instruments, mandolin, or both).

I agree with your overall premise, that the typical music used inside the church is tragic, tepid or schitzophrenic (In some cases); but do you think the answer is really to lose the Mandolins and drop everything to the Key of Db?

I think that you will always have some guys who just don't give a rip about music period. And you won't be able to reach/engage (or please) them with any form of musical expression.

(For examples of good musicianship using mandolin, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGvBteFZiGE

Or wind instrumentation, check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXHOyqHzupk

and this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYt_3ZKEIKI&feature=related

(Side note - DMB has alot of male fans, so its not just a feminine draw to the soft, lovey-dovey songs that they have produced).

My two cents, so tell me where I'm wrong guys (or right)!

Anthony, in the spirit of discloser I drive a Ford truck and listen to Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen and U2. More to the point so I will not be accused of highjacking the blog, but that is the fun of responding sometimes, back to point, I cannot sing. I wonder how many other people have been told, “of course you can sing.” The singability and parts for those who can sing does seem important. Yes the words need to be authentic and be God centered, because worship is not about me, it is an offering to God. Do you think everybody come equipped with the pipes to be able to sing? Maybe some of us bring other offerings to God in worship. I enjoy listening to others sing and make their offerings, I smile and try to hum and not get in the way of the person next to me. I wait for the new heavens and a new body to join the choir.

I've no doubt that Anthony agrees that some men would have no problem worshipping with a band that includes a mandolin.

But let's be frank. All you have to do is look at radio marketing and what type of commercials are played on what stations to figure out what guys are listening to (it's their bread and butter).

For example, you won't hear much about beauty products on St. Louis' alternative rock station (105.7). One is FAR more likely to hear an advertisement for a monster truck rally (sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY!), which of course would NEVER grace the ears of 102.5's soft rock listeners (somehow Celine Dion and car crushing doesn't quite jive).

Now, one can point out the exception to this, of course, but we need to be honest and look at the common denominator. If your church is playing soft rock (the closest secular match to CCM), and you wonder why 20 and 30-something year old guys aren't coming to church, you need to get your head examined. It's not just style (as Chris wisely pointed out), it's about content, substance, and I would add "artistry" (men appreciate people good at their jobs.... like musicians who write their own freaking music).

We can point out exceptions all day long and drag this (already tired) worship war on forever. Or, we can hold our traditions a little more loosely than we hold our Bible and we can wake up to smell the bold-punch-you-in-your-face-alternative-rock coffee the culture's been brewing for the last 2 decades.

No, it doesn't HAVE to be alternative rock, but it needs to be something significantly updated. "Contemporary" Christian Music? Give me a break...

A post about church music generates a thousand responses? WHAT?!?!? Shocker.

Hey guys,
have you heard "The MarsHillbillies?" THey're a bluegrass worship team at...you guessed it, Driscoll's church. Presumably he doesn't think the mandolins are too unmanly.

Guys, it's not the instrumentation that alienates men, and I don't think that was really AB's point. That reasoning gets a little too close to the "which musical form is more godly" conversation that some folks have used to justify Bach-and-nothing-else in the extreme fringes of the worship wars.

As a worship leader and college pastor, I'm keenly aware of the need to engage men. It starts with strong male leadership, and with a clear call to the Mission. If we spent more time focusing on the mission, then we'll spend less time on emotionally-cathartic worship sets. That will serve and engage our men more than tweaking our song selection.

Anthony, you offer some good thoughts, but is it going to end there? You said this is "one of the many..." What are some more? I agree we need to reform, in some way or another, our approach to music, but what of the other parts of our worship? What about the formal liturgy?(not saying it is a bad thing, maybe we need to return to it) What about our sermons? Etc. I'm not convinced the only thing keeping guys away is a feminine voice and a mandolin. Just a thought. Oh, yeah, I finished college and have a fridge packed with Pabst Blue Ribbon. mmmm beer.

Presuming the musical taste in men seems a vain undertaking. Presuming them even among white middle-class men would even be a stretch. I could drag out five friends I have who honestly can't stand one another's music - yet they can all worship together.

My church music does not need to entertain me, nor do I need it to woo women. I need my church music to help me focus my thoughts and emotions on my Lord and savior.

Anthony, I tend to find you insightful on many a topic and while you touch on a few truths here I believe you've stepped beyond being insightful to holding others in contempt.

We can and should critique one another - holding one another accountable and looking to see the best expressed in our live and churches. I do believe though that this can and should be done without belittling those in question. We relegate ourselves to a insular and critical life if we can only mock what we do not empathize with or understand.

Anthony, I think you are right on; I think that a lot of churches are producing a generic spirituality with their cum baya campfire songs. I know there have been meaningful campfire experiences but for todays culture it is just not meaningful. Frankly, That kind of forced fakeness is a real turn-off to young men.

Aren't there much better reasons to divide up the Body than music? Anybody who doesn't go someplace because the music there isn't his favorite has misplaced priorities.

Matthew Smith, exactly!! Here's what so weird also. It's amazing and how personal evangelicals take this music discussion.

It's almost as if you were talking about somebody's mama or something. I mean people actually get personally offended by this discussion as if you were attacking them.

Why do people take this stuff so personally? Why are people's identities so wrapped up in their worship preferences. I don't get it. Saying to something, "you're music preferences suck," is actually(oddly) received as "I don't like you."

I have an iPod with over 10,000 (legal!) songs on it. I can listen to whatever music pleases me at any moment at any time of the week. I'm happy to put my musical preferences aside for an hour on Sundays as long as the lyrics point me away from myself and towards Christ. People get too worked up about style, when they should get more worked up about content.

Anthony says: Why do people take this stuff so personally? Why are people's identities so wrapped up in their worship preferences. I don't get it. Saying to something, "you're music preferences suck," it actually received as "I don't like you."

***While I dont prefer Christian prom songs either....telling someone that their music preferences SUCK (i.e. one way they worship God)....that is a pretty abrassive thing to say...

I like when these threads follow proper arguments...just sayin'.....

Peace!

Ok Frese, how about something a little softer than sucks, "hey your music preferences may be alienating some people." People still take it as a direct attack on them personally. That just does not make any sense to me. Churches have split over stuff like this. It's just oddly an emotional issue in some circles.

Granted, we can all use constructive criticism, but when a reproach is coached in belittling language like "your worship is like a prom song" can you tell me Anthony that it "does not make any sense to me?"

To answer the question - "Why Men Hate Going to Church?" I'd argue it's the same reason he's hated it over the last couple millennia.

Man desire is to rebel against God; to dominate and exalt himself over God. He'd rather be worshiped and envied than sit in humility before the Lord. Modern, ancient, post-modern churches all have their problems but this fact will remain consistent.

Wow. I absolutely love this dialogue. Laughed my head off. Thanks

Maybe one day here we can discover a new A Mighty Fortress. Wow there's a man's song. I love the comment earlier with "Brian" and other names inserted into Jesus songs. Nice.

jeff, I believe Mighty Fortress was written by Luther, and he stole the tune from a popular song that was sung in taverns in his day. There's one more masculine point for that one!

I also heard somewhere that early church music was created in such a way as to be sung in unison by the entire congregation as a way to memorize scripture and church liturgy, as well as worship God and sing to him a "new song."

So as far as I'm concerned, we as Christians just need to understand more what the appropriate role of music in worship is. Is it made for corporate singing, or can it be performed by a band; the congregation can sing along if they have the musical ability? Are we trying to create an atmosphere with it? Conjure up an emotion? Hopefully we're not marketing with it, or through it, like the whole CCM nastiness.

One more thought: I'm reminded that I need to learn more about worship when I read Job. When the messenger came and said basically "your family and friends are all dead,"
"At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship."

What's up with that?

I didn't realize anything was out of place in the CCM world until I actually considered the lyrics of Tim Hughes' "Your Love is Extravagant" and realized he was signing about having sex with Jesus (VERY overtly...). Then a non-Christian friend lent me U2's Achtung Baby CD and for the first time I heard non-CCM music (beyond the radio playing in stores) and was amazed at how good it was.

Lyrically, much of what CCM produces is horrid (and it's worth noting that much of what you hear on pop stations is also below par).

But musically also, much of what CCM produces is horrid (often a ripoff--to the extent that Christian music stores have lists up so you can match the style of Linkin Park or _______ to the "equivalent" CCM ripoff).

To top it all off, CCM music (due to the rabid commercialization of it) is generally aimed at (and written for) a very specific group of people: 30-40 yr old Christian stay-at-home moms. They are CCM's biggest market.

So let's see, bad lyrics, bad musicalness, and a very specific demographic that has little in common with young men...
Connect the dots, eh?

Two quotes from Tim Smith (the worship pastor at Mars Hill Church in Seattle) on church band members (paraphrased...): "if you want to twang out country music that's great, we have a place for you, but you better twang just as good as the popular non-Christian country players."
"Your heart AND your fingers need to be in the right place if you are going to play in corporate worship. Playing mediocerly on a guitar with your heart in the right place is great worship, but it's not great corporate worship."

From a good article by Mark Labberton that gets to the heart of the issue:
"For all of our apparent passion about God, in the end much of our worship seems to be mostly about us. We presume we can worship in a way that will find God but lose track of our neighbor. Yet it was this very pattern in Israel's worship life that brought God's judgment. Biblical worship that finds God will also find our neighbor.

What is ironic and especially pertinent is that many debates about worship are just indirect ways of talking about ourselves, not God. Our debates devolve into how we like our worship served up each week. It's worship as consumption rather than offering. It's an expression of human taste, not a longing to reflect God's glory.

If we worship Jesus Christ, then we are to live like Jesus. In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46 that our worship will be measured by how we have lived.

The heart of the battle over worship is this: our worship practices are separated from our call to justice and, worse, foster the self-indulgent tendencies of our culture rather than nurturing the self-sacrificing life of the kingdom of God."

The rest of the article is worth reading and also addresses what seems to be an issue at the heart of the issue of men being turned off by church. Where is the invitation to fight for justice, to fight for the culture of the kingdom of God?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2007/003/7.81.html