The Institute (協会)

Sounds like the part of Oklahoma City around the Quail Springs Mall area. No poor blacks there about the same as Atlanta, this area use to be all white I do not know what the white evangelicals think about it. What do you do when some one you thought always needed your help(but somehow thinking this is not racist) is just like you and even doing better then you?

Now as for the view that black means urban I think this goes with the lack of analysis in anything the evangelical church does. It took many years before the church that started the seeker sensitive model to even examine its worth and when they did they found out it failed. To understand where people live is easy the government provides this data on census.gov.

Anthony hit the nail on its head "watch everyone remain comfortable with "separate but equal."" Seems to be the case, why can white people accept as equals Asians and Indians and even marry them(I have quite a few friends who married asians) but not blacks?

What again is wrong with singing a song of love to your savior? Isn't that what David did so well? Doesn't Proverbs speak often of God's wisdom being sweet? Doesn't David talk about the sweetness of fellowship? My singing a love song to my wife (God help her ears!) doesn't preclude me from also fighting for her. It seems like you're suggesting that 'love singing' and 'real masculinity' are mutually exclusive. Maybe you're making a different point about masculinity and femininity, but if so, I missed it.

On a separate note, in previous posts you seem to chastise white evangelicals for living secluded suburban lives. Would those same sentiments apply to black middle class folks that live secluded lives? In other words, should the folks you describe (or more specifically, those that you describe who are Christians) move their families closer to poor black or poor white folk?

ab,

I see the same dynamics in my church. Many have PhDs, many are doctors, many are lawyers, many are professors; many middle to upper middle class blacks. What's ironic is that our church is smack right in the middle of a very white, affluent area of west county. And yes, I think many - while they may not say it - have this attitude that we are fine. (Yet, there are quite a few interracial couples too that attend.) And yes, I often hear the automatic association, "urban" and "black" (I cautioned a president of a fairly well known St. Louis seminary not to do this). It is quite offensive. My kids who attend predominantly white schools often get automatically grouped with the kids from the hood. Sometimes the low expectations follow.

To Paul's point above - it would be extremely difficult to challege middle class black professionals who are Christians because many have been denied for many years of the luxuries that whites have taken for granted and many come from abject poverty conditions. Needless to say, all Christians of all stripes and hues need to be challenged to fight justice, love mercy, etc. This will take different forms; which means this may not necessarily require a black family to uproot and move to the city. (Many like us moved to the county because of the better school situation.)

And if white evangelicals pursued this demographic they would need to leave the "savior to the rescue" at home or be met with 'please.'

lbb

Luke said, "And if white evangelicals pursued this demographic they would need to leave the "savior to the rescue" at home or be met with 'please.'"

Leaving the "savior to the rescue" ethos will take some work to pitch as long as there is this unfounded idea that blacks are primarily "needy" and underdeveloped.

I'm not sure how the "black" and "urban" thing became synonyms. It has no basis in reality.

Brian asks, "why can white people accept as equals Asians and Indians and even marry them(I have quite a few friends who married asians) but not blacks?"

Hmmm. Good question. Part of the answer may lie in the fact many blacks have no interest in marrying white people? I dunno?

I actually know a fair number of black/white couples, including a fair number where the man is white. No worries of most blacks don't want to marry whites, as there are plenty of single people out there of all races, methinks.

And I think I've been in the general area of Atlanta you call home, Anthony, if P'Cheen is a hint. So if you saw a painful skinny painfully pale guy about your age walking through your neighborhood in June 1994.... j/k :^)

I was with you, and the warm fuzzies that come with being around middle-class folks. Lord knows they are few and far between in my neck of the words. But, you lost me as you started pointing out luxury car after luxury car, and then I realized that if that is the measure of middle-class Black folks, I would be sorely out of place in my 2004 Mitsubishi.

How do you expect White evangelicals to get it together in terms of recognizing that Black folks aren't just the urban poor when we have our own keep-up-with-the-Jones' classism to contend with. Instead of criticizing White evangelicals, how about you consider why the prosperty theology is flourshing in the Black community. Could it be because we are quick to determine someone's value and "blessing" based on what folks have and their net worth, as you have done in this post?

WOW... so much racism in ALL the responses above... perhaps you should take off the COLORED glasses and see people as PEOPLE. Whether RICH or POOR, whether BLACK, INDIAN or WHITE... we are all PEOPLE.... with the same wants and desires and longing to belong...

Maybe Blacks don't want to be with Whites because of how they are treated in their own neighborhoods... same goes with the Whites being with Blacks or Indians... the social structure is against mingling...

Perhaps if GOD turned us all inside-out there wouldn't be any racism!

I have a slightly harder question, which I once posed to Stanley Hauerwas. He had no answer.

Can middle-class black folks get behind a ministry to inner city blacks run by whites?

I worked for 6 years at such a ministry, and the one group of volunteers we were most desperate for, but always without, were decent black men.

Any help, fellas?
Nathanael Snow
ndsnow@gmail.com

It's no coincidence that Atlanta has one of the highest rates of consumer debt and bankruptcy in the nation. Seems to me that blacks and whites in your city are overly status conscious, and judging by all the mega churches I've seen in both communities, the church is part of this problem.

Just wondering, what kind of car do you drive?

Wow! I am not sure what I think here. As a biracial man who is culturally African American (that is this was my upbringing, but I am not denying my "other half" for clarification) I read your post and smile at the "community" overcoming all the obstacles, but then as I read some of the white brotha's comments I cannot help but think they have some very good questions. As someone who has worked amongst and lived along side the urban poor for the past 8 years , I must say that the middle class black community has been the most difficult to work with. But I do think that a lot of this would be solved if ministries to the black urban poor would be ran/headed up by blacks then the middle class black community would be more likely to participate. It do grow tired of seeing white only ministries ministering to minority majority communities. Help us out with this Anthony! Help a young pastor out who has a passion for seeing racial reconciliation.

Grace and Peace,
Racially Exahausted

I would like to know the demographics of which you speak Prof Bradley. I am always up for a challeging and engaging conversation. I like your post; however, the stats scream foul ball. Here they are

Unemployment - Blacks around 11% and Whites 5%
Poverty Blacks around 26% and Whites 12%
Out of Wedlock Blacks around 56% and Whites 13%
Prison Pop Blacks around 17% and Whites 3%

Now I am not saying that there isn't a growing black Middle Class, however the numbers speak clearly for themselves. We are twice as high or more in every category that contributes to poverty, I think you are missing the forest for the trees here Prof Bradley. There is a huge issue and numbers such as single parent homes and prison population rates are growing year over year. To say "Since 1994, I've been trying to convince white evangelicals that most black people are not "urban,"poor"," is correct if you are looking at overall rates, the problem is we are smaller in population and our percentages in these areas are higher thus given the perception (which on a per capita basis is correct) that the majority of blacks seem to be poor.

Lionel illustrates very well why statistics based on the average often fail horribly at describing the situations of large minorities. Well said, brother. You've got to look not only at the center of the distribution, but also at the tails, sigma as well as mean.

One reality as well; Dr. Walter Williams points out that poverty is rare among those who graduate from high school, get a job, and get married. Not coincidentally, crime is also really low among these groups.

I don't think government can solve these problems. They can stop contributing to them by paying young girls to have children out of wedlock and ignoring inner city crime, but I don't know that government can solve these problems.

Oh, and by the way, Tam: 2004? Sweet new car! :^)

Anthony, your stat that only 1/5 of blacks live in urban areas is very interesting to me, and I must admit is surprising to me. Do you mind telling us what your source for that stat is? Thanks.

Just Mee~ said, "Perhaps if GOD turned us all inside-out there wouldn't be any racism!"

If God turned us inside out, we would probably form social classes based on spleen color and kidney size. And woe to those who may be missing one or the other.

I'm from Prince George's County, MD (suburb of D.C.) so I can relate to what "black middle class" looks like. Besides the whites perspective of blacks, whether "urban", "poor", or "middle class"; there are many places in this country that have Black people (I'm thinking particularly of youth) that aren't even aware that there is a such thing as "middle-class" for Blacks. To many of my students that I teach in the Pittsburgh area, You are either poor or rich, and the "rich" is either because of celebrity(tv, music, sports) or criminal activity. So think about my challenge of trying to get my students to strive for what I consider to be realistic goals for their future lives when they have never seen the reality of an Atlanta, Oklahoma City, or P.G. County.

Jim said, "Seems to me that blacks and whites in your city are overly status conscious."

Amen, "brutha!"