The Institute (協会)

Oh come on, Anthony, criticism is not the same as hate (and I realize that the first time you used the word "hate," you were using it in the colloquial sense, but that was a different usage from in the last paragraph). And Bell's position on homosexuality (as reported in the article) is radically out of step with Scripture. Should we get to know people who do not agree with us on everything? Absolutely. Do we have to find someone who practices a sin before we can decide whether the sin is wrong? Absolutely not. Since when do we need to know a child pornographer to know that child pornography is bad? We can trust God on that one.

And it's a magnificent overstatement to say that Western culture has shifted epistemologically; academic postmodernism and epistemology are radically-shifted. But popular epistemology is more similar to the epistemologies of the Roman Empire around the time of Paul's epistles. It's a sort of live-and-let-live pluralism that doesn't want anybody to think their god is above other gods (which is why the Romans hated the Jews and Christians so much).

Anthony,

I appreciate your thoughts on Bell. I have not heard/read enough to make up my mind on the various issues I'm reading on the blogosphere, but it is nice to have somebody point to what is good about him, rather than just what's wrong.

Just to contribute some actual though here; It seems that people are getting hung up on the reference to Bell's thoughts on homosexuality in the Times piece. We should be really careful here, because it isn't his quote, and I'm sure there is a much larger context than that article gave space to.

I could see myself agreeing with the trajectory of the sentiment though. Its easy to judge and criticize sin without knowing (let alone loving) the sinner. Doesn't Jesus incarnation point to the fact that God pursues relationships with sinners, in order to bring them out of their sin and into life in His son? Unless we are doing the same, should we really be outspokenly vocal about the sins we evangelical christians typically label as "bad", while neglecting the sins we struggle to overcome? Its going to sound cliche, but maybe what Bell was driving at was asking the question of what would Jesus do, this side of the grave, and eternity; judge and condem a homosexual, or pursue a friendship with him, in order to bring salvation to him?

Our raider friend has a great point. We don't have to know the sinner in order to judge the sin. And Chris, since Jesus doesn't contradict himself, what Jesus would do is LOVE the sinner and HATE the sin. And since love is not a feeling, but a decision, one can decide before ever knowing someone to love that person.

I personally think Rob Bell is a great speaker. I have heard him on multiple occasions. I do, however, believe that not everything he speaks is biblical. Though he quotes and proves the Bible over and over again, he preaches some things that aren't. Such as a literal Hell. He does such things basically because he doesn't want to believe that "people are going to burn forever." Honestly, I don't want to believe it either, but does that make it untrue? Naw! That's right, I said naw. It means no just in case. On this topic, Rob Bell says, "My question would be, does grace win or is the human heart stronger than God’s love or grace. Who wins, does darkness and sin and hardness of heart win or does God’s love and grace win?" My answer is that God's love and grace wins only if you let it. He doesn't throw it on anyone. That's why you have a choice. To choose good or evil (Deuteronomy 11:26). It's all a choice. Our daily decisions and our eternal residence.

Matthew 25:31-46

Is Rob Bell in the NPP camp? (New Perspective on Paul)

I was checking out his website (nooma.com) and looking around. The videos look pretty good, though a bit awkward at some points (odd pauses).

Then I saw his recommended reading section... most of it was Jewish commentaries on the Bible (New and Old Testaments), and also a couple books by N.T. Wright.

Maybe it was just to be informative, I don't know. I do know a lot of guys who read and recommend those they disagree with. I just found the guy after seeing your blog here, so perhaps you know more Anthony?

Eddie- Rob generally tries to avoid labels, you'll never see an interview or book where he accepts any label other than "Christian." I really love his stuff and I've listened to a lot of sermons and read both his books. If I had to describe his theological views I'd say strongly covenantal with a strong influence from liberation theology. He's certainly reformed in terms of affirming covenant theology, I very much doubt that he'd affirm the doctrines of grace, however. I'm also not really sure how he'd discuss God's sovereignty.

The thing with Bell though is that he doesn't really care about those discussions, to be totally honest. He's focused on building the kingdom and that's pretty much it. He's really not interested in theological debates. In one of his nooma's he says, "It's easy to argue about whose right and whose wrong or whose in and whose out, but actually taking the Scriptures seriously when they tell us to live sacrificial lives for the good of others." (That's a rough approximation of what he said.)

Eddie, Rob has no "camps." Any attempt and putting in a box will fail. I always recommend people read books that don't always agree with. Suggesting a book does not mean you endorse ever word in it. Only a really narrow-minded person would only recommend books that they totally agree with.

It's had to pin Rob down he quotes John Calvin and tells people to read everything that John Piper has written.

Anthony, what do you think about what Mark Driscoll had to say about Rob? Was it fair? Accurate?

I dig them both and have learned a lot from both. I think they could also learn from each other in some areas.

Rob Bell. He seems really cool. He is an engaging speaker. I am missing something, however, in that reading his books, watching his videos, and hearing his talks I have no clue where he is coming from. Where is Jesus Christ in his message? Engaging culture is great...Sam Harris and Brad Pitt do so because they are gifted communicators. How that makes Rob Bell somehow immune from criticism I am left to wonder. And I find it a little bit perplexing that those pastors busting their butts shepherding their people with absolutely no notoriety in nondescript places are dismissed as unable to engage in culture: they engage the hell out of the culture they are in and don't ask for anything in return. Sometimes being a faithful servant with absolutely no notoriety is alright...we need cats like that. Do we need guys like Bell? I suppose...but his message gets dissected on such a stage, and rightfully so. He is, as far as I can tell, so far removed from a Piper, Driscoll, Keller in what he preaches as to be unrecognizable from orthodox Christianity. Epistemological differences today? Without question, but amazingly some hold on to traditonal creeds and confessions and others do not. The guys who don't aren't immediately to be thrown into the rubbish heap, but why not question where they are coming from?

Anthony,

I recently read "Sex God" by Rob Bell. I have to admit, the reason we ordered it is because of the title. I found it a very scripturally sound book, and it dealt with an area many people are uncomfortable with. I was impressed with his understanding of the Word of God and how easily he presented ideas. It is a worthwhile read for anyone interested.
His approach to ministry is unique, and I am a bit disturbed by people who are offended by out of the box thinking. People like Bell, and Mark Driscoll are thinking out of the box and the Body of Christ is all the better for their thoughts. Does it mean we need to agree with them on everything? No. I think we forget sometimes that even though Martin Luther thought out of the box, he too had ideas that the church should and did take issue with. But the change was good and it was important for the church to grow.

We cannot afford to live in the same evangelical box weve been in... the world is changing, culture is changing and we are still operating in 16 thru 19th century fundamentalism.

I've been looking around some, and I think I found out why Rob Bell doesn't prefer a box... 'cause he's a universalist in his leanings. Multiple people have pointed out to me in my own inquiries his comments in Velvet Elvis. Here's a website that tracks some more of what he says:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/emergent_church/index.html

/me is not a Rob Bell hater, just a young church leader looking closely at something before accepting it.

Albert wrote:
>Though [Rob Bell] quotes and proves
>the Bible over and over again, he
>preaches some things that aren't.
>Such as a literal Hell. He does such
>things basically because he doesn't
>want to believe that "people are
>going to burn forever."

Where does the Bible say there is a literal hell??? I can't seem to find it.

Here is a great quote from Rob that fits this situation very well:

I think some people, when they say ‘well, that’s questionable theology’, they should be honest and say ‘actually, I’ve just never heard that before.’ When people masquerade their ignorance as somebody else’s improper theology, that’s just arrogance and it’s wrong.

I have no interest in having long, boring discussions about what the Bible is. I would much rather us try to do what it says to do.

"Where does the Bible say there is a literal hell??? I can't seem to find it."

Look it up. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.

Carl wrote:
>Look it up...

Thanks, Carl. I did and its not there.

Since you didn't guide me to a passage where the Bible makes an obvious and clearly worded claim that there is indeed a literal hell, it must mean that you can't find it either. Once again Rob Bell shows how much more about the Bible he knows than his critics do.

I dont know if this helps or not, but its something to consider. Jesus' mention of hell in Greek related to a burning trash pit that burned oustide of Jerusalem. The burning trash pit was certainly perpetually on fire... but it wasnt eternal. Yes, Jesus did speak of Hell alot, but was the Hell he mentioned the same as the one we like sending people to... the one Pastor Bell seems to take issue with?

In Him,
Miles

Thanks, Miles!

Its refreshing to see a response from someone who has bothered to open his bible and actually take a look inside.

Miles wrote:
>Yes, Jesus did speak of Hell alot,
>but was the Hell he mentioned the
>same as the one we like sending people
>to... the one Pastor Bell seems to
>take issue with?

I thought your response above was excellent within the context of your reply - that of a literal hell vs a symbolic hell described by reference to a perpetually burning trash pit outside of Jerusalem

But your words raise another issue here that seems in desperate need of my rant. I have read Rob Bell's books and have listened to a hundred hours of his sermons and I can't find Rob "taking issue with a literal hell" anywhere. What I do hear him saying is that he doesn't have time to argue over what hell is because he is in pursuit of so many other more important things that Jesus is revealing to us. If you got the impression the Rob takes issue with a literal hell then what you may be hearing is the roar of all the uninformed critics claiming that Rob Bell takes issue with a literal hell. I believe that is called gossip.

I do get concerned when people like Albert express an urgent priority over some point in modern Christian doctrine such as a literal hell when I can't even find such a claim in the Bible.

Its clear to me from the behavior of Albert and many others blindly critical of Rob Bell that they have stopped worshiping God and instead have chosen to worship their own doctrine. Then when someone like Rob Bell tries to guide them back to the Bible they call him a heretic.

Hmm, what is interesting is that Rob, no matter what he believes or says is bring thousands and thousands of people to Christ, that seem to hate the "Church". Stop with the BS. People dislike him not because they do not agree with him in every detail, but because they are Jealous of what he is doing. I personally have seen so much growth from people that are apart of his church, or have watched his noomas, or have read his books. Next billy graham the Chicago press said, but I say he will be much bigger than billy if not already.

I was introduced to the book "the Velvet Elvis" by my 21 year old son. I then watched all of the NOOMAS. God has used Rob Bell to Change my life and my relationship with my Lord in a powerful way. I give Rob's books to everyone in my path. His materials especially the NOOMAS are changing lives. I live in IN.,and received an e-mail from Tx. about how powerful Rob's message is. I am an activity Director at a long term healthcare facility and I show the NOOMAS there. God is using them to change the lives of Sr. citizens as well. Thank you Rob and Kristie, your hard work and obedience to our Lord has lead many to the living Gospel. Marla

...only those with gay friends are positioned to judge homosexuality...

So then, only those with murdering friends, stealing friends, lying friends, etc. are positioned to judge murderers, thieves, and liars. This is typical of the kind of poor thinking and reasoning that I see a lot with Bell's exegesis and preaching. There's lots of solid, good stuff too but we still need to be discerning and test everything we hear/see/read — regardless of the size of one's church, effectiveness, fame, books sold, or whatever.