The Institute (協会)

It seems to me that too many Christians behave as if "salvation" (of some sort) were found in politics. They cry out "give us a king to lead us." So God gives them the human leader they "think" they need and they put all their faith in him. Doesn't matter if their republican or democrat, both sides behave as if "salvation" (as they would define it- the end of immorality, poverty, abortion, racial strife, hunger, injustice, etc) is found in the Oval office.

But if the Bible teaches us anything about politics, it teaches us that the answer to the worlds woes cannot be found in politics any more than it can be found in education, war or the wisdom of Homer Simpson. The only answer to the world’s problems is Christ.

Consequently Anthony, I don't think your point #3 goes far enough. I'd say that any Christian (or non-Christian for that matter) who believes that any politician will save our society has been hoodwinked.

To some extent, I'm skeptical of any politician who talks about faith, not because they shouldn't have any, but because so many have used faith (and Christ) as a stepping stone to achieving their own goals.

The question is: why do so many Christians (most noticeably evangelicals) live as if everything hinges on who was in the oval office?

Darden asked, "The question is: why do so many Christians (most noticeably evangelicals) live as if everything hinges on who was in the oval office?"

I don't know maybe it's because there are people who believe that culture forms from the top down? I dunno, great question!

That's possible, but it seems off base to me. Jesus wasn't a top down kind of guy. He didn't go to the powerful and popular so that they in turn would influence society. He went to the people without power, wealth and popularity and said, "on this rock..." It seems the church needs to stop looking to politicians to solve the worlds problems and start lookig to itself.

Honestly, its like this. Less taxes, pro-life, non-libertarian/liberal about euthenasia, no condoms and "do what feels good mentality about sex, etc in schools, no pro-gay lobby, no pandering to hollywood (its the degree that dems do it). When Clinton, Obama, Ted Kenn, talk about faith its a happy faith where its a good thing to have but I dare not say that the Bible is "good", the Ten commandments are a good way to live and that "I" believe in Jesus (gasp gasp) b/c he is real and his Spirit is real, ohh yeah there is a real evil and there is a real good.

Thats a big reason why I and all my friends and family vote republican. My dad hates bush but would vote for him in a heartbeat again at the last election, because he cant stand the spineless way that democrats talk. Can they call a spade a spade? There is way to much hype over this whole "Christians vote Repub" thing. If a Dem would grow a pair then maybe me, my friends and my whole fam would vote for them. Seriously if a DEM was pro life and pro tax he may have my vote vs a pro-choice Repub.
BTW the Dems get to take over both houses and now they have a lower approval rating than Bush? What? unbelievable
Also just listen to Obama, what are his plans for anything? I mean why should anyone vote for you bro? Because ur not a Republican? Ugghhhhh great strategy, dont think that the majority of Christians blindly vote Repub, we vote b/c of the simple reasons listed above.

Stork you said

"Honestly, its like this. Less taxes, pro-life, non-libertarian/liberal about euthenasia, no condoms and "do what feels good mentality about sex, etc in schools, no pro-gay lobby, no pandering to hollywood (its the degree that dems do it). When Clinton, Obama, Ted Kenn, talk about faith its a happy faith where its a good thing to have but I dare not say that the Bible is "good", the Ten commandments are a good way to live and that "I" believe in Jesus (gasp gasp) b/c he is real and his Spirit is real, ohh yeah there is a real evil and there is a real good."

Are you kidding?

1. Bush gives less taxes, he just does it for big business.

2. Don't forget the morning after pill, pro-life, schmo-life

3. He cares about babies in the U.S but what about Sudan and other places of genocide?

4. No Condoms? I will refer you back to statement #1 and the morning after pill (which he made over the counter) he could have left it where it was.

5. Half of the Republicans have been caught in gay scandals. Are you serious?

Hey there Mr. Woods, totally serious.

Repubs (traditionally) have been about less taxes. Ummm... who cares whether its for big business btw, is big business evil?
Although traditionally its been about lessening the burden for everyone. BTW, dont bash big business, they do more for low income people than churches do.

So what about the morning after pill? I aint looking for a zero-sum game here. I am looking (along with most everyone I know) for some party/person who seems to be on the same boat as Jesus :) and me. Repubs have been traditionally pro-life and Bush (remember this isnt a pro-bush aRGUMENT BUT RATHER WHY I/people of faith USUALLY VOTE REPUB) got up in infront of the nation and said that he was against abortion. GREAT! The morning after pill, BOO!

Still give me a DEM candidate who is even for limited abortion? 0

Mr. Woods, may I remind you that we are talking about THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Thats who I am voting in to govern. Not Sudan and not any other place. GOOD, take care of your own house not the whole city, or at least not the whole city till ur own house is taken care of.
I am arguing and trying to demonstrate why, based on a spoken word, I and everyone ( who happens to be people of "FAITH" I know votes repub).

Half the Republicans have been caught in Gay Scandal? Uhhh what? SO? What follows from that? If you say you are for the outlaw of illegal drugs and yet you smoke weed every-night are you a hypocrite? Well, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe you have some deep psychological issues that stem from childhood, and you find doing drugs alleviates it. Maybe you liked to get messed up but know you or anyone else shouldnt, and maybe you know its bad and dont want it outlawed but think its best not to have a parade promoting doing drugs...
I dont even know what Your "half of gay Scandals" thing even means. BTW how many repubs are in office and how many are in "GAY" scandals. Off the top of my head its 3.

If its a 2 party system, are you gonna tell me that any Dems "STated" position on any moral issue is more enticing to a person of faith? IT's a stretch, Unless u r Jim Wallis :)

I was just throwing out that there are just some basic things that seem to always fall in line with the repubs. If the Repubs fail, then so be it. I will call em out on it.

Wow, I cant believe you are so AMAZed that I would say that. Take a deep breath and realize that its not a zero sum game. Abortion, taxes, homosexuality, sudan etc... nobody is perfect but you mean to tell me AL Gore, Bill or Hillary, Kerry or Dean, Edwards or Pelosi whoever would have a position more like that of people of faith than the similar repub candidate? NO, so it looks like I will be voting once again for a republican.

Stork,

How about the Iraq war as a moral issue? (Over 1 million deaths since the invasion to locate WMDs.) A few of the Dems have been opposed since its inception. And a few of the Dems have repented concerning their initial support. (Of course, Ron Paul is the notable exception among the Republicans). The Religious Right has achieved a major coup by convincing Christians that their faith is properly expressed through modern conservative political ideology and by giving more weight to certain "moral" issues. And this is often done without regard to the fact that politics is largely about compromise and consensus, not so much principle. Thirty years of committment to Republican presidential nominees and Roe v. Wade is still the law of the land. And even if Roe is overturned, abortions will not end. Of course there is a certain justice attained by simply condemning the act de jure. But if you take 3 birth control pills at once, abracadabra, you've become your own abortionist! If we end the war politically, it is not likely that US citizens will continue the war through private means. For this reason, many prefer to address the abortion crisis non-politically, while reserving their vote for other issues where real success via politics is more likley. i understand this, although personally, i do allow the issue of abortion to greatly affect my vote. But i will not give such a decision a biblical or Christian imprimatur. This is just simply how i do my political calculus. If i were poor, uneducated, with several mouths to feed, i might think differently. "Well, then you'd be selfish," you might say. No, not really. Just taking care of my own house first. Isn't that why you don't care what a US President does about Sudan?

My point is this: who are you to define the so-called moral issues? Can you point me to the official and canonized list of how much weight we are to give to various issues? And even more, how has voting Republican achieved real (not stylistic) success on these so-called moral issues? You do your political calculus, Lionel does his political calculus, and i will do mine. Politics is about results. What good is it to vote for the righteous candidate if righteousness never comes from it. Great, you have a sense of personal satisfaction and the appearance of outward righteousness. Ok, you have your reward.

On another note, one might contend that your "take care of your own house" argument should be applied to the Iraq War. Admittedly, you may be persuaded by the argument that Iraq was a threat to the U.S., WMDs, links to terrorism, etc., but a lot of us are not, and therefore, we consider the war to be unjust. This is a MAJOR moral issue.

Your insinuation that Republicans are in the same boat as Jesus is laughable. Jesus is in a boat that is not of this world. Get a kingdom-perspective and stop drinking the Constantinian kool-aid.

Chris, thanks for your comments. But you can take your meanness and shov it. BTW, can you forgive BUSH inside your "kingdom living"... uhh prob not :) also great ONE MILLION people died since we invaded. Uhhh ok..... where did u pull that 1 from? Moveon.org? That wasnt even my point nor have I tried to make any moralistic pt. about Iraq, but go ahead. Actually maybe you should serve for awhile, it might make you a less angry man :)

BTW, if Jesus lived in the States, who would he vote for?
A) A republican
B) A Democrat
C) No one
(d) La Douche

Just curious.
ANd by the way maybe you should drink some cool aid ( that I will make and its on me) to loosen those veins up that were popping out in your neck as you wrote. Relax dude, holy cow. What kind of kingdom you want to live in? An "ingrown hair is still festering in my neck" type? Dang, I was just trying to give a simple overview.

btw, I do have my reward, thanks for reminding me of my supreme court nominees :)

Peace, and have fun accepting other peoples pts of view w/o flying off the handle. GOD BLESS (thats in my Kingdom LIving)

Stork,

It is unfortunate that you found my comments to be angry. While i was certainly spirited and passionate, i don't think i was mean toward you. This is the downside of written communication--it makes it difficult to gauge the tone of the speaker. And what is more unfortunate is that it provided you an occasion to engage in ad hominem rather than intelligently respond to my arguments.

Why should i forgive President Bush? Did he apologize for something? i don't think it is a stretch to say that admitting mistakes in judgment is not this President's strong suit. While i think he is a decent man, i believe he has been a disaster of a President. Would Jesus have voted for him? i don't know and i don't care. That question makes no sense to me. Jesus would render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and render to God what is God's.

Your response to Lionel seemed to suggest that it is so OBVIOUS that "people of faith" should vote for Republicans. i disagreed with such certainty. So given this difference of opinion, really, which one of us is less likely to accept other people's points of view? i think you.

By way of response to your suggestion that the moral issues all fall within the Republican party platform, i raised the issue of the Iraq War. Clearly "people of faith" should oppose unjust wars. But perhaps you see this war as just. Well, you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. Jesus prescribed a politics for the kingdom of God, not for the kingdoms of this world. So, i am willing to be charitable in non-essentials and avoid judging my brothers as less than faithful because they don't share my political ideology. And in the present American context, i find that in order to make this point, i must strongly oppose the notion that Republicans are in the same boat as Jesus.