The Institute (協会)

It is true that those particular types of moral behavior are not upgraded by participation in sports.

However, I can attest from my own experience in cross-country and rowing that other moral attributes like teamwork, delayed gratification after long practice and diligence, hard work, and eating what you kill, are all encouraged by competitive athletics. These are economically productive, and thus publicly moral traits, though they are not the same as private moral character.

So let's not straw-man things. :)

Man oh man did I get this first hand playing baseball through high school then living in the University of Oklahoma's Athletic dorms for two years(no not an athlete some NCAA rule required non athletes in the dorm)

When Kevin Sampson was still the head coach of the basketball team the players pretty much did what ever they wanted as long as they played well. Same for football, but Stoops ran a tighter ship you broke his rules you paid. Though honestly the athletes where not much different the the frat boys, but in this one fact they where they had to perform on the field.

Character is NOT taught in sports, school or life when our parents fail to show us virtue in their lives. We must win at any cost. Winning the football, baseball game, going to a great college, going to a top law school. Those are the goals and no one cares how you get there. If you do something stupid and get caught as Vick did sure they will hang you (and if you happen to be Black God help you, look at the Ankiel case of white privilege), but as long as no one knows it or the public likes you it is ok as long as you perform.

What tusc0n raider said.

Sports was one of the most productive tools to teach me perseverance. True, there could have been other methods, but in my case sports taught me that getting to the goal was not an easy process and that often pain, failure and embarassment stood in the way.

Anthony, you are correct that sports are also a great medium to reveal our sin. In moments of fierce competition we are particularly adept at showing off our sinful nature; but in an odd way I find that a blessing because it reminds us of who we are outside of grace.

Hmmm, I haven't read the book the author cited, but the whole argument seems flawed. I think sports can build character, even without virtuous adults. Virtuous adults just make the process better.

Also, are we to believe that there are abundantly more virtuous adults in female athletics? Since none of the examples in the article mentioned women, I guess female athletes are perfect? (nappy-headedness notwithstanding)

Would you object to the claim that playing sports can build character? If you would not object, then you've got a serious problem for your argument. Here's why. Your conclusion is a universal claim about what playing sports does not do. If there is an individual that, at any moment, has his character built by playing sports then you've got a defeater for your conclusion (i.e. some person at some time did have his character built by sports).

This isn't a problem if you soften your conclusion to 'Playing sports alone does not build character.' I think that's the strongest conclusion you can draw from your argument. If that's what you intended, then I agree.

I would agree with Paul. Sports provides an excellent opportunity to build character, but without the guidance of adults who mentor character-building rather than "win at any cost," sports will be no different than any other opportunity.

This might be obvious, but there's a bit of ambiguity in my suggested conclusion. I did not mean, "Playing sports by yourself does not build character." I did mean, "Playing sports in of itself is not sufficient for the building of character."

Probably two things working against each other here. On the one hand, I'm with "tuscon raider"; cross country & track help a young man or woman to learn to perservere through pain and sometimes boredom. I'd guess that even the worst examples of the citizen-athlete benefit from this.

On the other hand, we have the interesting phenomenon of letting athletes get away with things "because they're good at sports"--really in the same way that most nations let soldiers get away with things "because they're defending us." (our nation is ALMOST an exception to this)

Solution? We can remember that athletics is, by and large, "training for war"--remember "Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton" and all? To reform athletics, we simply must adhere to the militia model (sports/service for all) instead of the mercenary model we have today.

Haha, the Coakley book gets so many people worked up! Whew!

I've said before, you can take the person out of the ghetto but often times you can't take the ghetto out the person. Many of these athletes did not have the family structures or the neighborhood contexts to make us believe they would be different. However, there are a some athletes who have done better than others on the social conduct scale.

The New England Patriots are caught in a spying a scandal--"sports builds character"

haha!

Still stuck on this?

I think by referencing the Patriots you should ask "does un-checked competition build character?"

Any competition can bring out the worst in people to succeed. Here's a short list that came to mind.

journalism: Steve Glass, Jayson Blair
love: Lisa Nowak
law: Duke procescutor, Mike Nifong
corporate: Enron, HP - Pattie Dunn

Stuck??? Dude, there's a 676 page book in its ninth edition exploring sport and it is probably the most used textbook on the sociology of sport in America. No, I wouldn't say "stuck." It's a real issue in academia.

Your non-sports examples are immaterial to this discussion. I've never heard anyone say, "being in business builds character" or "being a journatlist builds character" or "being a lawyer builds character"

The adage remains "sports builds character." That's the assumption although the evidence repeatedly demonstrates the opposite. Please read Coakley's book.

Certainly few would say that business builds character, but that said, living in the corporate world CAN tend to bring people to tolerate consistent pain.... :^)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Anthony, I'll get with you later today on this. I disagree with you, but I want to explain better why. BTW, I will read Coakley's book.

Peace.

Stem, just to give you a heads up in terms what I'm really driving at. I define character exclusively in terms of being like Christ. "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus' (Phil 2:5). My definition of character originates from Romans 5:1-5.

Sports cannot build character. That is the work of the church. So on the radio I've been making the case that we should not look to sport to fulfill what the church is commissioned to do.

If you able to tell me how sport forms ideal character, that of Christ, I'm all ears.

Imagine that as a freshmen in high school Joe Blow consistently broke the law and often caused trouble in school (among other acts of rabble rousing). One day the school's football coach convinced him to play football. Over the next several years, through friendships developed and other team concepts, Joe Blow begins to respect others (peers and authority figures), respect himself, and aim for better things in life (getting an education, being a reliable person, etc.). Something changed in Joe Blow, but if we can't say his character was built, then what do we say about it? Are you suggesting this story could only happen via the church?

If we're talking about building character then it seems that we're admitting to degrees of character (i.e. you may have more than me, but we can both continue to build more). Couldn't you get all you're after by saying that at some point the only way a person's character can continue to be built is through the church? Most things in life, like sports, are imperfect, but God can use imperfect things. At some point the more imperfect (e.g. sports) becomes non-efficacious and the less imperfect (the church) is needed to continue the building of character. This doesn't mean the less imperfect couldn't be used all along, just that at some point it becomes necessary.

Paul, first of all, that high school football team you're talking about is rather extraordinary. At my high school, as is common, it was the members of the football team who were doing most of the "rabble rousing" (which obviously reinforces Anthony's point).

But, even accepting your illustration, Joe Blow may be respectable, but he still does not have character in the way Anthony is talking about it. To use biblical terms, he is a "whitewashed tomb." It's not bad to help people become respectable, unless it starts them thinking they are therefore respectable before God.

It is the same with education. People say education builds character, but that is wrong too. If you take a pickpocket and give him some education, you may just turn him into a bank robber. And if you give a bank robber an education, you may just turn him into an Enron executive.

I just find it really hard to believe that no one outside the church has character. Socrates, Aristotle, Gandhi, the chair of my department, all people I would say did/do have character. If you have a definition of character that excludes a large number of people that one would normally think have character, then I think there's something wrong with the definition.

I still think there's a huge difference between saying sports/eduction does build character vs. it can build character. Saying it does not build character entails that it cannot, but saying it can doesn't entail that it must.

I'm a bit ashamed of not mentioning this before:

1 Timothy 4:8

ought to settle a lot of this, no?

Robert, it probably won't. There aren't that many Christians who believe that true character formation, the kind that reflects the original character cultivated in the human person at creation, has much to do with following Jesus.

Robert, I think that's quite helpful. Paul doesn't say bodily discipline is of no profit, just that it's not the whole story. That's kind of the line I've been advocating. Sports can be used to build character, but of course that doesn't mean anytime someone plays sports they are building character.

Anthony, are you saying that following Jesus the only way one can build character? Would you agree that many OT figures had character. How is it that they could have character without following Jesus' way, but people today cannot?

Ahhh, Paul, Jesus embodied the teachings of the OT. The OT saints, as they did what God said, pointed to the model of God-intended character that Jesus lived out flawlessly. OT saints had character when they were living to standards directly and explicitly connected to God's desires for human life. Jesus did what the OT saints could not do--live perfectly according to God's will for human life. So yes, the only way to build the type of character that God created the human person before the fall, and is a foretaste of human character in the eschaton, is follow the work and person of Christ. Sorry, I think the best model of human character is found in Christ not in sports or any other secularist anthropological system. Outside of the work and person of Christ, character discussions are limited and substandard.

I know, I'm a too narrow in having God's standards be the way to define what character really is. Sorry.

I think we agree more than one might initially think. You said, "I think the best model of human character is found in Christ... Outside the work and person of Christ, character discussions are limited and substandard." I agree and is pretty close to what I had in mind when I said, "the only way a person's character can continue to be built is through the church." To make the connection more explicit, without the church there is a limit to the development of one's character.

I've enjoyed this discussion and would like to continue it by asking two more questions. One, what would you call the moral development of individuals that have nothing to do with Christ. I can think of an individual that did lots of awful things and then one day started to think more about his kids and he straightened up. He no longer sleeps around (recently got married and has been faithful to his wife), seems to have gotten a grip on some anger issues, and has actually tried to reconcile past relationships with friends of ours that were quite strained. Now as far I know, this has happened apart from any commitment to Christ or His church. I would say he realized the world doesn't revolve around him and as a result his character has developed. I would also say that it can only continue to do so if he commits his life to Christ and seeks to follow His ways. If you don't want to say his character has developed, how would you describe these obvious (and significant) changes?

Second (and much shorter), do you think Christ utilizes various means to assist people in developing their character? If so, do you think Christ could use sports as one of those means?