The Institute (協会)

I saw that video (I think) as soon as it was posted on resurgence. Killer. I love it. He does look like he is trying to be Rob Bell a little bit, but his points are dead on. I've been listening to him for a while, so it isn't anything new to me, but the need for it in culture is such that I doubt he will ever NOT NEED to be preaching this daily.

I totally agree. More of this is desperately needed.

Anthony, for the love of Pete, write a book on it this summer. Seriously. I'll pre-order tomorrow if you do it.

I saw that video after it was posted on resurgence. Killer. I love it. He does look like he is trying to be Rob Bell a little bit, but his points are dead on. I've been listening to him for a while, so it isn't anything new to me, but the need for it in culture is such that I doubt he will ever NOT NEED to be preaching this daily.

I totally agree. More of this is desperately needed.

Anthony, for the love of Pete, write a book on it this summer. Seriously. I'll pre-order tomorrow if you do it.

The whole feminized-Jesus vs. Real Men thing is a wildly swinging pendulum that in the majority of mainstream churches is a little pansy.

On the other hand, evangelical churches which are trying to help men be manly often push women into a breeder-homeschooler box.

It is very difficult to find a place where the men act like men, and women who are professionals are not looked down upon.

Very good video and message!
Much of the hubbub on the web seems to be centered on the reference to sex at least once a day. But I suspect that once he explains it, that the 'inquiring minds who want to know' will realize just how unmanly and not a nice guy that attitude is.

Ahh, I agree. Focusing too much on the image (Imperatives) we need to fit will not give us a Gospel-Centered result.

The importance should be placed on WHO God and Jesus are (is?). By seeing that we are created in His very dudely and masculine image, the result of dudely men in the church will automatically happen on its own.

Women are put into that kind of box when we just tell men how to act without preaching the example of Jesus. The key is to preach Jesus how he truly is and not as the feminine, limp-wristed, Oprah-loving, non-confrontational, pacifistic pansy who lives with his mom that culture "feels" would be more comfortable to accept. Only then will men WANT to live as men instead of react to just another pressure to be something because another authority told them to.

Start with the heart, the healthy image we are looking for will result from a Spirit- transformed heart.

Dennis - I'm not following you. Are you referring to Driscoll's comments or the reactions to him?

I get where Mark is going with this. I agree that we do have a lack of male leadership in most American churches (if not worldwide) and our vision of gentle Jesus meek and mild is perhaps a bit too ubiquitous. Any serious reading of the book of Revelation will show that Jesus is the all-powerful Lord of history and will conquer over his enemies on the last day with surety and finality. Jesus it as powerful as it gets. Jesus was the ultimate man, given that our definition of "man" is defined by him from his Word and not ESPN.

In light of Mark's comments I have to ask...

What is "manly" (in the hairy chest thumping, beer pounding, sense that Mark seems to advocate) about a lamb to the slaughter?

Yes, Jesus was not a "hippee in a dress" singing sentimental love songs to God, but I feel like Mark paints him as an a#$ kicking kind of guy who would love to jump in the ring to contend for the UFC title belt. I love Mark's teaching, but when he talks about this issue, it doesn't sit with me very well. Maybe, it's not what he says in terms of the idea, but the words he chooses to describe it. I'm not sure. I get where he is going, but would phrase it much differently. Maybe it's just simply overstatement to make a point and to raise awareness. As with most issues, this is also a function of Mark's personality and that needs to be taken into account as well.

Maybe I'm just a wuss.

No Zach, as you know you're not a wuss, especially since you're willing to disagree to some degree with the ra ra we are men crowd. I've done the Promise Keepers stuff, went to the big rally in DC 10 or so years ago, and I agree that we need to continue to emphasize biblical masculinity but the important part there is the biblical. I think jurisis' reminder of a swinging pendulum is important and along with biblical masculinity we need to be reminding what biblical femininity is or we may swing back to the stereotype of the conservative, weak, home-schooling mom (please note I said stereotype, there are of course many many wonderful home-schooling moms, many of which are my friends who are living biblically in their calling) but there is much more than just that to biblical femininity. What we unfortunately call strong women, who are sometimes called Proverbs 31 women, who also are submissive can help us reclaim true mascalinity. We have to teach both or the pendulum vary well may swing back. I see the danger being a new christianized version of masculinity being promoted rather than a biblical notion of what it means to serve and to lead. Remember the picture of Jesus is Isaiah 53:2 "he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him." I'm afraid we all, and especially those who want to be up front, care more about how attractive we are and how attractive Jesus is, instead of addressing the desperate need for acceptance that is driving our need to be attractive or to make christianity attractive. it's not attractive, it's a stumbling block and foolishness and some of what we're called to will look weak and foolish and god forbid feminine in the world's eye's and it's then that we'll know we're walking humbly before God and the world.

As with most people who try to unwrap Mark Driscoll, people never see the whole picture. Mark does an incredible job bringing in God inspired text which raise the bar for Men in the church and elevate the position of Women in the body. Of course, for any of you to truly know how Mark teaches on these issue, may take you close to 24 hours and more of listening and studying. I've been to Promise Keepers and did not gain much from the time spent there. Most of it seemed extremley emotional and disconnected from culture. Driscoll pointed my wife and I towards the scripture for the answers to the questions of our roles in marriage and our christian walk.

Brad, how is Mark trying to be like Rob Bell. Last time I checked Mark gets his doctrine from the Bible not changing and deleting certain aspects of doctrine in order for it to appear appealing to culture. You could not choose two different people. Mark has spoken against the approach of Rob Bell when it comes to his approach to biblical doctrine.

Jason, you're right I don't know Driscoll and I'm sorry if it sounded as though I were attacking him, it wasn't my intention. In my mind the discussion had moved past Driscoll to the larger issue of how we encourage people to be who they've been created to be. I'm glad to hear from you that Driscoll's intent is to have scripture drive his work.

Jason, I totally agree. Driscoll has never ceased beating the drum of good exegesis (and I hope he never does).

The comment about Rob Bell was more along the lines of the style and feel of the video. Bell pretty much pioneered the stylish and artistic internet video message, and Mark normally does the straight up preaching or talking to a camera. Just a comment on style, certainly not quality. I'm big fan of Driscoll's message.

"What is "manly" (in the hairy chest thumping, beer pounding, sense that Mark seems to advocate) about a lamb to the slaughter?"
Zach, that is almost the pinnacle of dudeliness. What greater image of manhood is that of laying down your life for those you love? This theme is in every war movie, ever heroic epic, and every tale of bravery and gallantry this world has known. It's predisposition is woven into our very being as image bearers. That misconception is part of the problem.

Thanks for you responses.

Brad, thanks for the clarification on the Rob Bell comparison.

I think when it comes to discussions like this, many see to spout their own cultural opinion. We like to talk about how we feel when we hear something a little different than the normal Oprah and Dr Phil messages. More Christian men and women need a biblical perspective and textual references when they consider their roles in life. Too many of us have been strongly influenced by our own upbringing through our parents or public education. It grieves me to see the church reflect the culture in so many aspects especially in the area of marriage and family. There should be something different between Christians and the culture. But stats show our divorce rate is just a little higher than non-church going folk. Something needs to change, and Mark is one of a few calling men to reclaim their family and their church through biblical reflection.

i don't think shoving men into into the contemporary american boy code (the code which boys are forced into the image to when they are young...for more on this see Real Boys, author William Pollack) is the answer for the crisis of masculinity of the church. if we are calling men to conform to the image of manhood laid out by our society then we are still going to have a crisis of masculinity in the church. In these discussions I think all of us long to recover our lost-fallen manhood. We will either put our hope in the Gospel or ourselves. If it is the latter we will overcompensate, lift a lot of weight, and look real strong but inside we are still weak feeling the separation and shame from a shattered manhood. And if you are a pastor or teacher these these wounds do and will come out when you teach.

Man, Jason and Berk, RIGHT ON. Amen. I wholeheartedly agree.

In all things, look to the gospel and the cross. Only that can be the foundation and support needed for true, deep change and not a surface level adaptation to culture.

Berkeleyrican, exactemente!! You're totally on point, as usual!!

I just return from the mountains here in Afghanistan ministering to men in the infantry, I am an AF Chaplain. I am at the end of the www so I can not see/read/ listen to the sermon. But some thoughts about men – they are looking for an adventure that involves risk and conflict. I am not the first to say this, but why would an 18 year old join the infantry knowing he will end up either in Afghanistan or Iraq. In mentoring men we need to help them manage not avoid risk and face conflict with end result being reconciliation.

Fred, I agree. That is the difference between a healthy, biblical masculinity and an unhealthy masculinity. I would love to hear some of the lessons you have learned in this area in ministering to airmen and soldiers in war. I am only a few days away to becoming a chaplain candidate in the Army (currently an MP), and I'd appreciate any nuggest of wisdom you've gleaned over there.