The Institute (協会)

Not too sure... It is an interesting point though. I was watching the civil rights game in preseason between the Cards and... well, it doesn't matter, the Cards won anyway. They had Bob Gibson and a few other African American retirees on to talk about just that subject.

Gibson didn't really have an answer as to why, but his solution was to have ball players go around the country to play pickup games in the communities that needed awareness of the sport the most. Apparently, there was a program much like this in the 70s, but I can't remember the name.

On a side note, Gibson is apparently a preacher now. Not too shabby.

Also, it does seem though that hispanic players (particularly Haitians and Domincans) are increasingly making a bigger showing in clubs. *shrugs*

My first thought is to wonder whether or not there are the same kind of infrastructures and cultural supports for baseball in black communities that there are for football and basketball.

Are the same forces that direct young black men into those sports also present for baseball?

Brad, there was a program like that in the 70s. My dad has talked about it before, and I remember that it had a person's name--like Pop Warner football, except for baseball--but I can't remember for the life of me. IN perusing a number of articles trying to find out the name, though, I noticed something interesting. The number of black baseball players in the major leagues began dropping in the 80s and has been dropping ever since (not counting the black Latin American players). It seems to me the drop in the number of black baseball players probably correlates to the breakdown of the inner city family. Baseball is generally first made important to us through our fathers or grandfathers. I know that's a major reason why my brother and sister and I love baseball--because our dad introduced it to us. Without that connection, baseball probably doesn't seem as interesting as the more flashy and media friendly sports basketball and football. So a program that not only introduced young men to succesful black players, but also provided adult male mentors using baseball to reach the lives of these young men would probably be effective. And possibly solve some other social problems as well.

On a side note, watching the short tribute to the career of Jackie Robinson they played on the local news last night, I was struck by how much we are able to take for granted today. What Robinson did wasn't just ground-breaking, it was dangerous--for himself and for the gm and the team owner who decided to take the risk. These were courageous men who deserve to be remembered.

Amen. And that is a really good point... to a degree, I know some in basketball are trying to promote the same kind of family values, but the example shown in that sport largely doesn't match the rhetoric. I don't know. it's a tough call for sure.

My thought; baseball is taught by fathers, and LBJ's 'War on the Poor' did its utmost to remove fathers from poor--and disproportionately black--households. You can play football or basketball based on pure athleticity and do well, but baseball is a sport where you need to know the rules that aren't in the rule-book. You learn those from Dad, or at least someone else's dad.

It also doesn't help that all of the sandlots are fenced off today to prevent crime, I'd bet.

Great Robinson quote given by George Will, by the way; apparently he told his wife that if she couldn't pick him out, he was wearing #42. Somehow I don't think she had any trouble, though thankfully she might today.

Bert, I heard George Will make that comment too, and it made no sense to me at the time, and it still doesn't make any sense to me. So perhaps you can explain it to me.

Specifically what kind of unwritten rules does baseball have that football or basketball don't? And why can't a coach or teammates teach those rules?

Please note, I'm not pooh-poohing the absence of fathers, which I agree is a huge tragedy; I just don't, in this particular case, see the connection. It seems to me that in any team sport you take your cues from the coach and more experienced teammates. And just out of curiosity, is there any social problem at all that you don't think is government's fault?

Not to many social problems that the government doesn't manage to make worse, Mel. When you create dumb incentives (like paying young women to have babies out of wedlock), you worsen just about any situation.

(government does OK at putting criminals in prison, though)

But regarding baseball vs. hoops or football, the rules I'm talking about are the ones like whether the shortstop or 2nd baseman relays the throw from the outfield, where (if anywhere) the pitcher goes to cover 1st or home, whether to hit or bunt, and so on.

If you don't know these rules, you'll end up messing up your team no matter how good you are, and the best way to learn them is in the bleachers with your dad. Coaches just don't get enough time with kids to teach them these rules, really, and kids interested in showing off won't.

Contrast that scenario with, say, what Dennis Rodman did; use height & amazing agility to grab rebounds. Discipline wasn't exactly part of the equation for him, sadly.

Bert, how is that different from knowing, in football, whether to run or pass (and if pass, to whom)? For that matter, how is that different from learning street smarts (which those same kids learn just fine without fathers). Answer: By watching other people and finding someone to ask.

All you've really proven is that baseball has certain tricks of the trade that enhance natural ability, and if you're going to be a good baseball player you need to learn those tricks. If somebody is interested in baseball (or football, or basketball, or building model airplanes) he will acquire the knowledge he needs.

I think the real reason there aren't many Black baseball players is that a lot of Blacks aren't interested in baseball. If Blacks were interested in baseball they'd learn what they had to. So the real question is WHY are Blacks not interested in baseball. My own suspicion, for which I candidly admit having no hard evidence, is that it's cultural -- that football and basketball are more attuned to Black culture than is baseball -- and if every Black kid in the inner city were blessed with a father, the baseball numbers probably wouldn't change that much. Anthony may have a different perspective, but that's mine.

There's a rule of psychology that says that if you don't like someone (or something) you go looking for things that are his (or its) fault. We can agree that government does much that is unfortunate. But blaming Lyndon Johnson for Blacks not being interested in baseball? Gimme a break!

Terrence Moore - a black sportwriter - says that the idea that the black community and baseball are divorced is 'a big lie.'

Read on: http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2007/04/15/baseballs_still.html

I wonder if sometimes baseball is still considered the "white man's game" whereas basketball and football aren't. When baseball was at its peak (or at least nearing it), it was also at its morally worse (again, or at least near to it). Maybe the black community today still in some way remembers all the crap that the great guys like #42 had to go through just to play. There isn't the same sentiments about the first black pro football or basketball player. I really don't have any idea, but think this is plausible.

About the J.R. quote to his wife, he was joking about the fact that he would be the only black player out there. There's no good reason his wife would've needed to find his number, but evidently Robinson had a pretty good sense of humor to go along with his courage.

NI, not a bad comparison, actually, but the reality there is that one can compensate for an "oops" on play choice with football much more than with baseball by mere speed, size, and strength. One can run over a linebacker or around a defender, but generally one cannot outrun a well thrown ball to the right infielder.

(which is why impressive physical specimens like Rick Reuschel and Babe Ruth did so well in baseball, but are rarely seen on a football field or basketball court)

to make robert's last point make sense, i believe it should be: "which is why UNIMPRESSIVE physical specimens like blah blah and Babe Ruth...."

The babe was a fat ass. Fat asses will die on the basketball court, and they only work at one (group of) position(s) in football.

Not that any of this has bearing on the discussion, but there it is.

Also, there was an article in Ebony about this. Was flying home and the girl next to me had it...she was either reading it or sleeping the whole time, so I couldn't ask to read it.