The Institute (協会)

Can I get a witness? Oh I forgot I am a witness. :) Si Antonio muy sabias tus palalbritas.

A duras penas para nos los dos:). . .que lastima, no?

Uy Antonio. veo la pena en tus palabras. Gracias por tu honestidad. Cusiosamente anoche estabamos hablando y mi esposa me dijo - "Y porque Antonio no se junta con xxx que esta alli cerca." Ahora lo aclaras todo. Continuamos pensando y orando por ti - donde sea que estes.

Rob, gracias por todos (WOW)!!! Especiamente estas orando y tus amor para mi. Espero ver ti pronto!! Estoy animado!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you in point (2), but I have to take exception to this:

"If interracial marriage had been a desirable option for them they would have done it, and since they didn't, there's no point in talking to them."

Just because something is an option doesn't mean I'll ultimately choose it. For some people, that may be the reason the didn't marry interracially, but for others it may have been simply that the person they fell in love with happened to be of the same race.

I married a guy with dark, curly hair. But that doesn't mean that marrying a blond was never something I'd consider. There's a huge leap between hair color and race in terms of society's expectations regarding dating and marriage, but I think the analogy carries. I couldn't possibly have married every single man that I have ever considered good marriage material. It's not that I never considered it an option; it's just the way things happened.

Other than that, I'd have to agree with your other points. It's sad but true.

One notable exception:

My brother lived in El Paso for a few years, and the PCA church where he and his wife were members consisted of quite the mixture of various peoples--black, white, Asian, Mexican. Maybe this is unique to border towns, though.

One of my best friends is marrying a girl of Indian decent from Trinidad. I cannot wait to see his wedding because of the 15-20 PCA weddings(Went to a wedding in Memphis 300 white people and no others, except at the country club where the people serving us where black, I was very uncomfortable) it will be the first interracial one, though two of my friends married Brits. They are even moving to Trinidad for three years after he graduates. I love him for this and am glad to see that Christians can marry though of different skin colors and nationalities.

To expand the idea a little be further. I feel like I have taken a vow of celibacy being in a conservative white community and I am white. I have been on one date in 6 years with some one from my group. I constantly feel like a outsider because of my background and the fact that I am not conservative in the general accepted sense. I am an Artist first and foremost and setting me apart then the fact that I think non-linear makes me see things very differently then conservative white Christians. Do not get me wrong I have no idea what it means to be thought of as the black guy, but I do know what it is to be thought of as the weird (gay) guy.

Another thing that pisses me off is why do we whites think minorities should come to our churches? God forbid we ever go to a black church. So what you do not like the music style or sermon style big deal just because something is new and different to you does not mean it is bad, maybe you will end up liking it more.

All that said I am having thoughts about leaving my group as most of my friends have moved on and now I feel like a outcast. They would say no Brian you are not an outcast, but when you treat someone like he is then he starts to believe it.

Think hard before you enter in white Christian subculture it can be a very lonely place for one to be if you do not toe the line.

I also take exception to point #2. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

The rest of this was incredibly enlightening. Thank you for your insight.

Vida and Matthew, yeah, point to isn't really written to you guys. There's a particular group of folks that know exactly what I mean. So you're fine to take exception since you're not actually the intended audience. No prob:)!

Yes, I concur with the exceptions to point number two for the same reason.

Before I make this point
-- here’s the disclaimer, --
I am a white Guy, but I could care less about football, so If this is idiotic and ignorant then you’re gonna have to make me mad cause I get ticked talking about football, but I will get over being wrong so go ahead and be honest.

I like to push boundaries. Being white I have no idea what the struggles would be like for an African American man married to a European American woman while ministering in a multi-racial environment (or any environment for that matter). But I say its a cultural problem that needs to be overcome. Marry who you fall in love with, and if you are different races so what? People need to learn to get over their petty prejudices and their foolish ignorance. It's time for people to stop making apologies if they are in a multi racial relationship and instead look at the ignorant and honestly say. "what? Are you really so ignorant that you believe the Lord of Heaven and Earth, The God of the Nations has a problem with people from different cultures and backgrounds coming together?"

Sometimes people just need to be forced to deal with things that are uncomfortable. I realize that would create problems for those who choose to follow that path, and I am not advocating marriage across racial lines simply to make a statement. I AM advocating doing what God calls you too with zero apologies for it. And along the way if God chooses to make you a trail blazer for racial reconciliation by putting the truth under the noses of the ignorant - TERRIFIC!

I know there has to be pain and struggle in living a life outside of these cultural lines, but if God calls us to marry someone who is a different color, then He will sustain us. I feel for your friend being called a sell out, I am sure that must have hurt, and I know I will never experience that kind of pain, because of my own skin tone. But if he is where God has called him, good for him! Should he find a white or black or Asian wife, good for him. If someone blames or accuses him falsely because of what God has called him to, then I say screw em... God's truth is what we should hold to, not the perverted "norms" of fallen men who seek to divide and harass those who follow the Savior!

There, that’s my rant. And I hope you can tell that my obvious anger and indignation is toward a culture that would make anyone feel the things you have just expressed, and NOT toward those who feel them.

Peace and Reconciliation

J, you said, "If someone blames or accuses him falsely because of what God has called him to, then I say screw em..."

Man, it'd be great if life were actually that easy. It'd be pretty easy for my friend to say "screw em" if he felt completely at home in the place that the rejectors had banished him off to. I know very few white families that are risky and intense about reconciliation otherwise they'd join black and/or Hispanic churches and sit under a senior pastor who is a person of color. Now that's actually radical.

Anthony,

I LOVE your stuff, and I ALWAYS benefit from it. But point #2 kind of bothers me, to be candid, because I feel that sometimes you paint white, conservative Evangelicals in charicatures. I don't for a second deny that such folks exist, but it SEEMS to me that your assumption is that if I married a white girl I think interracial marriage is bad or if I meet an Asian I'll assume they were born in Asia. From my observation, these statements are untrue for 99% of Christians under 35 at my church. In fact, to be honest, I think interracial marriage has more cache or hipness in upper-middle class yuppie culture than same-race marriages do.

As an aside, I think inter-educational, international, or inter-economic (not talking middle and upper class, but truly low income and middle class) marriages would be WAY more challenging than a suburban black Xian and white Xian marrying each other. But I confess ignorance.

I hope this post doesn't come across wrongly; I LOOOOOOVE your stuff. You kick ass, bro. I can't wait to meet you in the new earth.

The dude, thanks for the kudos. And everyone, AGAIN, the main point of no. 2 as directed to black and Latino men only, that when people bring up interracial marriage "they have no idea what they just asked you and are clueless about the implications" and that often they've never been forced to think about it personally (b/c/ it's outside of their experience).

Dude, keep this in mind, your comment: "these statements are untrue for 99% of Christians under 35 at my church." Means that your perspective is very limited and my guess is that you've never actually sat down with blacks, Latinos, and Asians and actually discussed what THEIR experience is like.

Just yesterday, I had ANOTHER painful and difficult conversation with a friend who expressed the profound difficulty of his interracial marriage for ministry.

I honestly don't believe that large numbers of Asians, blacks, and Latinos all tell me the exact same things (from different parts of the country) and are all lying to me and deceived. I've had these conversations, esp with those 30 and up (which are the people mostly likely to deal with a lot of stuff). I'm reporting what I'm being told.

Also, you not a careful reader because I use words like "many" and "some" because I know this is not true for all people and all times (see the post below).

Your limited life experience at your age is not the norm at all.

Dude, you're statement: "I think inter-educational, international, or inter-economic (not talking middle and upper class, but truly low income and middle class) marriages would be WAY more challenging than a suburban black Xian and white Xian marrying each other" tells me one profound thing--you have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously have not spent much time with the middle-class and up blacks discussing this issue at all. You have no idea.

If still think I'm off, go to a middle-class black church in suburbs with black professionals (lawyers, doctors, business people, etc.), take a group of black women to lunch and ask them what they think of black men marrying white women, then come back and repost your comments. This is the type of group that attacked my friend. People don't have any idea about the implications when they suggest stuff to him. No idea.

The dude, one more thing, I had a very close friend while I was in seminary that said that it was literally against Scripture for races to marry. He was prepared to defend it from Scripture and he grew up pretty well-off (extremely, actually). Remember, he is, today, a leader of other Christians.

AB, you know I luv ya and this site, but I also have to take exception to point #2. Whether that's written to us white folks or not, I think there's a way to affirm the frustration that many minorities feel without (what feels like) writing us off as incapable of understanding or care. What if that majority culture person was genuinely asking about interracial marriage, as an opening to more honest dialogue? Setting people up in opposition to one another isn't going to help the situation.
I have a good friend--African-American pastor friend--who was absolutely shunned because he married a white woman. He was flat out told that she could never minister to African-American women, and therefore he could never pastor an A-A church. He candidated at a church that loved him and was ready to hire him, then retracted their offer when they found out his wife was white.
Today he's pastoring an urban, racially mixed church in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Philly. And he's fellowshipping with missional brothers of all colors. He was deeply hurt by the whole experience but is thankful for where God has him today.

The disdain for "mixing" isn't something you really see as much until you've experienced it. My parents at first thought they couldn't have kids, so they adopted two. One just happened to be black. Some real nastiness came out of the woodwork for that move. People on both sides have a real problem with a black kid growing up with a white family. Nevermind that we all love him and that the alternative may well have been abortion or a lifetime of foster homes. Many people who otherwise seemed very kind and open-minded would freak out if they found out my brother was black--the same for him when people found out his family was white.

In our family's last church (which consists entirely of white people), there has been none of that. Even after my brother got into trouble with the law and, for a while, looked to be devoting his life to all kinds of debauchery, people in the church prayed for him continually. One lady even sent him letters in prison regularly. Even now that he's a law-abiding citizen with a good job and family but still not a Christian, people pray for him in their homes; it's easy to let a person just fall out of your memory and prayers after a while (especially once they seem 'ok'), but that hasn't happened. So, there is hope, and there are places where good things are happening.

But Anthony's not just spouting nonsense. My first paragraph, sadly, outlines the way things have normally been for our family. Other people don't realize how rampant this behavior is until they're the target of it. It may be there, but you can't see it. I do think that things are gradually changing for the better; it's just so slow that it's hard to notice.

Steve, your question: "What if that majority culture person was genuinely asking about interracial marriage, as an opening to more honest dialogue? " is missing the whole point of this conversation. Having a dialogue about this issue, overall, is a seperate issue and is not what this post is about.

When people ask my friend if he's open to interracial marriage they dont' want to have a conversation about the issue as such, there are suggesting that he consider it as an option for being living in his context. And as such, they have NO IDEA what they are really asking and it's better for his sake to redirect because they are not and never will understand the implications as members of the majority culture. And if it hurts him too much to talk about it, then he should feel free to change the subject. And the people that asking him, out of ignorance at times, are clueless at just how personal and painful a question that is for a guy in his position. Extremely insentive and lacking much compassion at times.

Back in the 80s we had this saying, "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand" that I think applies here. What I continue to be amazed at is the assumption by many white males is that they know what it's like for this guy to even be asked the question. It's not just a question for discussion. It's like asking a woman to talk about her weight and what she thinks of her body. It's more than just a dialogue about the issue for him. It's deeply personal and often painful to discuss and he if he doesn't want to discuss it, he shouldn't have to. But as some, black scholars, the black experience in America is so belittled by many white that when blacks comment on it many whites don't listen, being very slow to speak, tell blacks that they are not allowed to feel a certain way. ("Hey, Cone, Patterson, West, [my prof friend], etc. you can't feel that way--how else are we going to dialogue about it?) The unfortunate assumption is that all blacks are ready or want to talk about this stuff.

I'd recommend you listening to Manning Marable and a book "Listening For Heaven's Sake."

Also, black and Latino men (I just heard of another yesterday) who are bleeding in these situations should be cared about enough to know that the interracial dating question is like a dagger and these men should be given permission not to discuss it at all. They don't have to talk about it. It may be better to move on to something else, if guys like my friend are actually cared about in the first place.

To not know that to even ask the question, in most cases, is extremely inappropriate speaks to the problem. To even ask, "hey, why would that be inappropriate to ask" exposes a lot of ignorance and inexperience in established black and Latino communities to begin with. Hence, your friend's experience SHOULD NOT be a suprise at all (unfortunately) and I would have advised him to never pursue a position at a black church with a white wife anyway. I would never set a brutha up for that kind of pain (see no. 3). He should have expected that. I think there's a reason why many blacks or Latino's have NOT said to me, "hey, bro I object to no. 2." Some questions actually make matters WORSE for guys who feel trapped in these situations. Much, much worse--and it's ok for these guys not to talk about it. It's like asking someone to discuss the topic of "divorce" by reflecting on the pain of their parent's divorce.

So pretty much everything I was going to say has already been said. Except that I know more caucasian women in interracial relationships that caucasian men at this time. And I, a woman, am typically more interested in non-caucasian men. I struggle all the time with this problem: if I were to fall for a caucasian man and thus end up in a same race marriage, would my very strong personal conviction in favour of inter-racial marriage then be completely discounted? Your post makes me fear that to be true. Personally, I would like for believers/churches/etc. to be in a place where there doesn't need to be a discussion or a question--where men date whatever women they want to and vice versa without anyone caring one iota what ethnic background either came from. I'm sure its a pipe-dream, but it would be nice if people would live their belief to that point.

AB, Like I said I realize I have no idea what the struggles would be like. And again I would like to apologize for my ignorance, I wish it were otherwise. I know I have no idea what it must feel like for people like you friends who report these feelings. It just really bothers me that this is the reality of this world.

As far as going to sit under an African American Pastor, I was in chapel Friday. I would be more than happy to sit under your teaching anytime, or every week. Terrific message, I am still pondering the depths of those truths, and probably will be for the rest of my life. Thank You.

Anthony,

I would like to apologize for speaking out of ignorance. I appreciate your service to the Church, and I hope you'll forgive me for my brash and ignorant response above.

Jared, hey no worries. We all learning here and the world's messed up. Thanks for the kudos about the chapel talk! Much appreciated!

The Dude, whoa, no need to apologize. No worries. Reality can be harsh at times. This is tough stuff that people just don't want to talk about all that much, that's all. We're all learning here.

This is a very interesting perspective. While I couldn't see myself suggesting an interracial thing, I had no idea that it was a source of pain for minority men at all. I would have thought that it was like someone saying to me "well how about approaching some of the much younger girls?"

But I really have to disagree with #11. Part of the anger that black women have is that successful black men date outside at an extremely high and disproportionate rate. Here's some of the easiest statistics I could find:
www.isteve.com/
2003_Census_Interracial_Marriage_Gender_Gap.htm
"In 2000, African-American men had white wives 2.65 times more often than black women had white husbands. In other words, in 73 percent of black-white couples, the husband was black and wife was white."

Minnesota in 2002 (IIRC), fully HALF of black men who married were marrying white women. It's kind of hard to argue "They were just near each other and fell in love;" it seems that there is some significant gender-based preference. It seems that women's preference for men goes something like:
Black > White > Asian

And men's preference for women seems to be something like:
Asian >? White > Black

Which makes life challenging for Asian men and black women. Some Asian guys made a good-natured film about it; check Google Video for "Yellow Fever."

But, anyway, I'm sorry that anyone would imply that it's not OK to want to be with someone of a somewhat similar ethnic group (and socioeconomic group, as you point out). And I think that all people who are single beyond our mid-twenties can relate to the pain and disappointment to some degree, even without any ethinc issues.

And I understand just a little how "have you considered" can be painful and insulting. A young married woman friend at church asked me if I'd "considered" a severely handicapped young woman who is unable even to ride in a normal car or change a diaper. Her husband, of course, is not handicapped (unless you count glasses and cat allergies).

I think the word "considered" is rather patronizing--it suggests settling, like: well, I know you really want a Honda, but have you considered a Neon? Perhaps it's just bad all around to take that tack. Better would be, "Have you met so and so?" or "So and so is also interested in blah blah, you should ask her about such and such next time you see her." That avoids patronizing and obtuse generalizations. And K, I totally feel you on the beyond-mid-twenties single issue. People somehow decide that if you're single past 26 then it's okay to "help" you in any manner of embarassing ways that completely ignore who you actually are as a person. It's ridiculous. I can understand that it would be even more difficult when other issues are thrown into the mix.

while i'm sure there is some sort of injustice going on, the only thing that stands out to me is the apparent underlying emotion of anger.

i suspect that if this anger is apparent in one's attitudes and how they relate on a daily basis, that will be more an issue to a godly woman than culture or skin color.

anthony,

i definitely sympathise with many of the points you raise here. even so, i feel the "plight" you describe pales in comparison to the plight of the black woman* in similar situations (even a latino has it better).

as a black woman in the northeast who subscribes to a reformed articulation of the gospel and tends to find herself in pre-dominantly white, conservative, evangelical circles, who is actually open to interracial dating but consistently finds herself as "the friend" and never the "pursued" and on most days the token among many dear friends, whose life, experiences and tastes have acquired her the name "oreo" from many of her "own"...yes, the list goes on...for a girl like me dating or the thought of marriage becomes somewhat of a pipe-dream.

while the picture you paint is true and indeed discouraging, it simply portrays the reality of our broken world and need for a gospel that penetrates our hearts, minds & worldviews…that moves us past our paltry attempts at racial reconciliation to a point where we can learn to love and live in genuine community with those unlike us, with those we sadly consider “other”.

*yes, i realize this blog is addressed to the boys, however, i would argue that the experience you describe is gender-neutral.

Anthony..what if you are a white dude ministering to white, poor trailer park people, middle class latinos, mixed families and African American of every social grouping...all of who live in the same neighborhood: I would think that this is semi-radical as well, given the lack of people in the neighborhood doing the same thing, and the virtual impossibility of getting support for such a ministry because there are just to darn many white folks to make it feel enough like a "real" urban ministry for the rich folk to throw their sympathy money at.