The Institute (協会)

Oh man, that is so true. I had a very similar experience. Men need to wake up and realize that fatherhood is a choice and an activity, not a status.

The word and meaning of "responsibility" is all but lost on our culture, and has been replaced with "obligation." This is a tragic thread of posts, Anthony, but one that is quite necessary. When will you write a book on this? I'm dead serious, I'll pre-order a copy.

Brad said, "I had a very similar experience."

My guess is that this is super common. Why don't guys talk about this stuff or why don't we hear preachers talking this stuff? Anybody got any ideas on the silence about this issue?

This happened to me, too. My parents were divorced when I was five years old. I had all sorts of emotional responsibility heaped on me by my mom. I really didn't realize it wasn't normal until I went through pre-marital counseling in college.

PS - Being raised by my mom is the #1 reason I never played sports in Jr/Sr High School ("You'll get hurt!").

I suffered a touch of this, too. Interestingly, part of the "cure" for me was when I observed my stepfather treating my mom with delight, respect, and yes, a little bit of friendly and affectionate teasing. It is not a coincidence that I more or less started dating soon after they married.

Scott said: "Being raised by my mom is the #1 reason I never played sports in Jr/Sr High School ("You'll get hurt!")."

Oh man, the "you'll get hurt" thing continues to emasculate boys. What's wrong with getting hurt, by the way?

This is interesting, I guess I am not the only one.... Even to this day my mother will e-mail about the weather and remind me to dress warm, i always find it amusing. I have seen this common trend where guys are literally delaying adulthood. guys in their mid 20s to 30s, driving a BMW but living at home where their mom cooks their dinner and do laundry for them.

A cultural trend in the asian american community is where the children become surrogate parents in the name of honoring the parents and the duty of being a good son or daughter. I have seen many families where in the marriage, the father is absent in doing anything and the daughter becomes a surrogate "husband". It is devastating.... We really need man to be man and take responsibility to be a godly father and a husband.

I too grew up in a situation like this. My mom was also verbally and emotionally abusive. Partially due to this I have dealt with same sex attraction issues ever since I can remember, It got really bad wnen my dad died when I was 21. The feeling of being trapped was overwhelming. I became a Christian at age 23 while away at college. As God drew me into Reformed churches I gradually started learning about Grace. At age 58 I still feel as though I am in recovery. Fortunately I am in a great church and have a lot of guy friends that I can be open with.

Jaime said, "Even to this day my mother will e-mail about the weather and remind me to dress warm, i always find it amusing."

Ohh, bro, I'm so sorry. Wow.

Harry said, "I too grew up in a situation like this. . .At age 58 I still feel as though I am in recovery."

Harry, wow, what a story. I think what makes these situations even worse is that many of moms have no idea that they're destroying their sons.

Fellas, I'm beginning to think that this a much bigger problem than I imagined and it needs to be addressed directly.

I wonder how many younger guys are married to women who are going to eventually do the same thing to their sons. How should men intervene and rescue their sons from this potential, etc? Lots of questions? Why do women do this to their sons in the first place? And on, and on. . .

As a dude who as I said has had a very similar experience, I wholeheartedly agree. I think the problem can cross gender as well.

My wife's parents created an idol out of her (only child), and now that we are (recently) married, there is a renewed tension where both parents are pulling her in separate directions (nevermind our own mission to "leave and cleave"). They are married as well, and committed Christians, but we are concerned about the health of their relationship.

Our culture has seen such a devaluation of marriage in general, that the only thing we have left of any value is children. It is no wonder they cannot live up to those standards! The worst thing about the whole situation is that the very nature of the problem is self-perpetuating generation to generation. This problem will not go away until marriage is reformed in our culture.

I must say I am trying to get my head around this -
Is it the spoiling / smothering of the son by the mother, as the daily mail (that really is a bad newspaper) says OR the emotional dependence of the mother on the son OR a combination of both, as to me the two don't necessarily go together ?

Colin

Once small thing guys can do for their sons is buy "The Dangerous Book for Boys" and tell momma to stand out of the way!! I've started giving this to couples who have sons. I've got to get me another copy as I've given away mine. I want to have it for any future grandsons. I know of a pastor friend who recently went on a campout with his son, and other fathers and sons from his church. These young guys are about 11-12 old. They took them somewhere where they could do guy stuff, probably shooting and tearing up stuff and blowing up stuff, where no one would get on to them. Then the dads spoke with their sons about girls, sex, God...lots of good stuff.

I do think in all this that we need to be careful not to confuse a daily e-mail with true spousal surrogacy. Sending an e-mail about the weather in the morning sounds to me more like a mom with an empty nest who still needs to feel useful. My dear friends have just finished a stint as youth pastor/wife where they had a young man who was definitely in a situation of spousal surrogacy. This was not due to a divorce, but due to the father having an accident that changed his personality, etc. The mom came more and more to lean on the son, have family decision-making discussions with him, turn to him for emotional support, etc., to the point where it was getting creepy. Thankfully, this young man (as well as my friends) were acutely aware of the situation. He learned how to place boundaries with his mom, while mom began to receive some well-needed counsel. I do realize that spousal surrogacy exhibits a wide range of symptoms, but I think the key element is that the mother finds her emotional identity (not merely a fulfillment) through her relationship with her son.

I think a key help in this for believing families/individuals is that women need to be taught that their identity as a daughter of God has nothing to do with their spouse or their children. Many Christian women in our society (and secular ones, as well) find their identity as "mom," and let every other aspect of their lives fall to the wayside while they are "mom." This is so damaging. Believing women need to find their identity and sufficiency in Christ. Then, if their husband disappoints them, or their marriage fails, they don't fall to their sons to complete that in them. If young women were taught to expect their fulfillment and find the measure of their identity solely in Christ, they would be much better prepared for a marriage between humans who disappoint each other, and much less likely to try and rear an emotional spouse in one of their sons no matter what life throws at them. And, they will also be the type of woman to encourage a healthy father-son relationship in her family rather than wresting the responsibility of rearing her sons from her husband, excusing his abdication.

"If young women were taught to expect their fulfillment and find the measure of their identity solely in Christ, they would be much better prepared for a marriage between humans that disappoint each other..."

HOGWASH.

The only people I've met who say they place the measure of their identity solely in Christ have been religious fanatics - people who certainly don't have a fantastic grip on human relationships at all. I agree that it's probably unhealthy for a woman to find her identity solely through motherhood, but it seems to me that the better way to handle the problem is NOT to pick yet another monolithic identity model but instead to make sure she cultivates multiple interests (including religious ones) and friendships of her own outside of the family.

And in the realm of gender roles and identities (a subject this website seems overweeningly concerned with), what does that statement even mean? Jesus was male, so how does a woman locate the sole kernel of her identity in Him? It sounds more to me like you're saying: "woman, do what the Bible says Jesus said." Which, I'm sorry to say, usually codes in conservative Christian speak as "woman, find another man to tell you what to do."

Perhaps it would help you, Jack, to know that I am a woman. I am not advocating subservience to some man. I am talking about believing women recognizing Christ as the Lover of their Soul. He is their Atoner. He is not a "monolithic identity model," He is my Creator, my Redeemer, and the only unchanging Object for my affection. If I depend on what another human thinks of me to validate my identity, then I am due for constant disappointment and frustration. If I depend on Christ as the validation of my identity, I am granted both peace and grace to pursue excellence through Him. Finding my identity in Christ does not mean that I cannot and do not pursue multiple interests, it means that I am not relying on whether I fulfill some list of "mother" expectations, or "wife" expectations to be satisfied in who I am. I am satisfied (yet not complacent) in who I am because of who I am in Christ. I am the redeemed child of God, rendered acceptable in His sight through the atoning work of Christ. It has nothing to do with male or female; it has everything to do with where I seek my sufficiency. If I am looking to anyone but Christ, I will be let down; and, then I will begin to question myself and flounder. If I depend on my husband for my identity and he abandons me, who does that make me? If I depend on my children for my identity and they leave or they choose bad lives, who does that make me? Christ will never abandon me. He will never disappoint me. He remains the same. Thus, no matter what happens in my life, I know that I am His redeemed one. He is my Lover. He seeks the best and most beautiful for my soul. I can rest in that.

Perhaps the problem here is your perception of "identity."

Finally, I certainly do try to do what Jesus tells me to do. And His commands are gender neutral, so that's not any justification for controlling women.

Yeah, I guess I'd first have to believe in both the divinity of Jesus Christ first and the infallibility of what is now taken to be the Bible.

Because looking at Christianity historically, what many Christians have taken to be his commands (after multiple translations, interpretations, and political manipulations) have OFTEN been used to oppress women.

As for the rest, thank you for clarifying your position. The way you'd written before made the gender thing confusing.

And I think the problem here IS my perception of gender and identity. Or rather, how yours and mine are different. Reading all the posts to this website has been somewhat confusing because there seems to be set of unspoken assumptions about gender that I just haven't been privy to. So enlighten me, please.

Question: in your church, do women as well as men get to be ministers and interpreters of scripture?

Not over the church, no (ie in the role of Pastor or Reverend). We believe that women being the spiritual authority of the church--over men--is not scriptural. However, women are certainly capable of ministering in other ways, of learning on their own from scripture, and having valuable insights to contribute to the discussion of scripture. Does that answer your question? I'm sorry that I was unclear before. I have made comments along these lines on previous posts, so I sometimes don't elaborate as I should.

I would certainly agree with you that humans have misused scripture to justify oppression. But their misuse and twisting of truth doesn't invalidate truth. Jesus had female followers who learned from Him the same as the men, so He would certainly not agree with oppressing women.

And I would also agree that coming from different backgrounds of perception can be confusing--but also interesting. I would certainly try to and enjoy answering any other questions you have about my positions as clearly as I could, as well as hear more of where you're coming from.