The Institute (協会)

This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. I'm a fan of the UFC and have thought a lot about this question.

It has definitely replaced boxing in my mind as the "sweet science." You have to respect the hard work, training, and skill that it takes to do mixed-martial arts. Of course, there is also the blood sport element, the same thing that makes hockey fights so popular. At the same time, it's not nearly so lethal or bloody as gladitorial contests during the Roman Empire. The UFC has really become highly regulated and refereed, much more of an actual sport than a bar brawl.

MMA fighters argue that their fights are actually less damaging than boxing, because you undergo less repeated damage and heavy hits to the head. The human body is designed to shut down after one critical head shot, which is what happens in MMA. Very often a person is knocked out and is able to get up and walk out of the ring. The repetitive, heavy shots to the head in boxing add up over rounds, fights, and careers, and you end up like Muhammad Ali.

Even my very brief and limited experience in the martial arts, I can tell you that getting beat up frequently changes the way you think. Movies like Fight Club and Green Street Hooligans are not too far off when they talk about the appeal of fighting to the masculine mindset. When you realize you're not made of glass you become less insecure and you feel more in tune with your body. You really do start looking at guys and wondering if you could take them. It's funny but true. Since I have stopped doing this stuff I have lost all of that (perhaps false) confidence but I certainly tasted the appeal of it. What does this have to do with UFC? I thought UFC was weird until I got put in an armbar or triangle choke and realized how painful "rolling with" and "mounting" another guy could be. My guess is that most guys who like UFC have had experience in wrestling or martial arts because I don't think you get it until you have. If you have never been in a "rear-naked choke" you probably think it's something out of the homo kama-sutra.
And as for passing boxing in popularity, I think it is just more exciting and is more realistic. I mean if you got into a fight with somebody, you wouldn't just stand there and trade punches, you'd grab and try to take them down and then hopefully sit on top of them and pound them, just like you used to do to your brother when you were a kid. It's something natural for guys but a lot of us have lost that spirit because the church and society have told us that ANY kind of violence is bad. I mean, who wants to get beat up?

Jordan said, "The repetitive, heavy shots to the head in boxing add up over rounds, fights, and careers, and you end up like Muhammad Ali."

Yep, so true. . .

Dave said, "It's something natural for guys but a lot of us have lost that spirit because the church and society have told us that ANY kind of violence is bad."

Bro, you're definitely on to something here!! I think you nailed it!

Someone please help me- i mean this very seriously... please explain to me how fighting is a core strength and identity of masculinity. To me, biblical masculinity points to faithfulness, sacrifice, courage, kindness and love. When i think of masculinity i think of the beatitudes or the friuts of the spirit. These are not 'feminized' traits... being brave enough to love your enemy- even at great cost to you- that is masculinity to me. confronting someone with love or being the first one to step into chaos even though you may not know what to do or say- that is masculinity to me. maybe it means physically dominating someone in order to protect someone else, i can get behind that 100 percent. but if we are glorifying physical violence as masculine... then i have lots of questions to ask.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Jesus--Matt 10:34

Timothy 1:18
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,

Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Haha, I just had to. Hey, jbrown, what's most alarming about your list about what "biblical masculinity" is that is does NOT include any language about battle or war. The Christian story is fundamentally a story about a war between the kingdom of evil and kingdom of God and God's raising men to fight in, what C.S. Lewis calls, "the Great Battle."

When you hear the word "masculinity" and the first thing you think of is the "beatitudes" and not "The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name" (Exodus 15:3), reveals that you may not a full picture of the masculine dimensions of the Image Dei (the image of God). Unless you're Mennonite then your beatitudes starting point makes sense and you may disregard what I wrote. Otherwise, you may want to start off with Murrow's book below or one of these: (1) Season of Life, Jeffrey Marx (2) The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity, Leon Podles (3) Fire In The Belly: On Being A Man, (4) Wild At Heart, John Eldredge (5) The Way of the Wild Heart, John Eldredge (6) To Own A Dragon: Reflections on Growing Up Without A Father, Donald Miller, (7) Crisis In Masculinity, Leanne Payne

And of course no one's glorifying physical violence. I'm assuming that was sarcasm. I like your stepping into chaos line. Good stuff.

"why do men LOVE to watch UFC?"
Because men are built to be warriors, and the places for expressing said wariorship are far less than they used to be. Ultimate Fighting is an arena where men can be, and other men can see, the warriors they want to be. Because the one of the few places where a man can be Braveheart or Maximus is the fighting ring. That's my take, anyway.

jbrown-

I would want make it clear that I don't think we are supposed to go around starting bar fights or hitting each other in the mosh pit at a rock concert. I think we need to challenge ourselves physically in the same way that soldiers challenge themsleves in training for battle. This strengthening should be in preparation for situations in which we may have to defend what is good and beautiful.
At it's best, UFC represents this kind of competition. If you spend some time watching these fighters, you will see that though there is often a lot of hype before fights to get people excited, the majority of fighters really respect each other and treat each other as friends and fellow athletes.
You will see more angry outbursts at an MLB or NFL game than at UFC. It's kind of funny that the guys who are kicking each other in the head will go hug each other when the bell rings while a batter who almost gets beaned (sp?) on accident will race to the mound to pound the pitcher. Probably because the later has no category for violence other than a release of aggression while the former gets beat up every day in practice and has gotten past that initial anger.

How do we as christian guys reconcile the God of the OT who commands the decimation of entire peoples (including women and children) and the God of the NT who manifests himself as a willing sacrifice? Oh wait, I forgot about the Revelation Jesus with tattoos and a freaking sword that comes out of his mouth. I guess there must be some things that are okay to fight for and some that aren't. Anthony - can you shed light on which is which?

I think we have to starts the discussion of men as warriors with a heavy dose of Genesis 3&4. Violence is for protecting the Glory of God from Adam's perspective. He should have crushed the Serpent's head and he didn't...He is less of a man not because he wasn't violent but because he did not stand for the glory of God (which was literally for his own good and well being..if God is glorified men live the good life). Period. But if we look one chapter forward we see a myriad of violent acts that reveal the evil hearts of men. Cain killing Abel and Lamech talking like a gangster rapper. What makes a man is when he is sided with the Lord, when he lives acts and thinks as the Lord does. The reason I say all of this is because it disturbs me that when this topic comes up on the blog, people like jbrown get roasted for saying the things they do. Granted I understand why, Godly men are not just pushovers with high moral standards, they are also fierce and passionate about what is good and right and they defend it with their lives...because God has in Christ all throughout the OT and NT and even today. But I think we have to give credence to what the man says because he is not talking about being a whimpy man who doesn't care for God's glory instead he is talking about loving what God loves, reconciliation, holiness and incarnational love. Violence is only a means to an end it is NEVER the thing itself. It will always be a representational act from a christians perspective, kind of like a metaphor expressing the importance of Gods kingly reign...which was/is established by GRACE.

look- i understand this idea that men want to be tested and that men need to learn how to defend a cause and to do it with their lives- but i think it is an illusion to glorify physical violence with the intent on brining pain and violence to someone else.

if we are going to throw around scripture then lets talk about "our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the powers of htis dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6. Is Paul speaking in a physical or spiritual sense? if its physical then lets go hit our 30lb bags and get ready. if its a spiritual battle then lets embrace a real manhood that loves its neighboor and enemy through word and deed... and then go hit our 30lb bag because we think its fun. i have no problem with martial arts- lets just not confuse what real masculinity is about.

if we want to talk about being a warrior then fine- i love that! go battle for peoples hearts by loving them well. go stand in the gap- go fight with prayer and love and service. LOVE YOUR ENEMY!!! thats incredible risky and dangerous and demands courage and maybe even a little blood. i just think if we go too far we become blind to what real masculinity is.

anthony- i just picked up the sarcasm line at the end of your comment... i understand you are not glorfying physical violence- just trying to keep the tension...

I think the UFC and MMA is a joke, personally. The fact that you can repeatedly bludgeon someone while they are on the ground is ridiculous. And of course medical records prove that boxing is more dangerous, the UFC has been prominent for a short amount of time. See what happens when "Rampage" and Chuck Lidell are geriatrics, I guarantee they'll have their own problems.As there are more generations that pass through the sport, we'll see more long term issues.

I find it difficult to see it as involving that much technique. I wouldn't qualify it as a "bar brawl", but I also don't think it's much more involved than that. The training regiment for boxers is so strenuous, these guys are top notch athletes whose bodies are more fine tuned than maybe those of athletes from any other sport.

The UFC will be popular for a little while and have its 15 minutes. But I don't see it being immensely popular for a very long time. It will always be around, but it won't always be all that huge. Saying that it will surpass boxing isn't really saying that much. It appeals to more white upper middle class kids, maybe the same kids that grew up watching the WWF (WWE, whatever). Boxing has not had a dominant, attention-grabbing fighter in a long time (since Tyson, maybe Lennox Lewis). And it definitely has not had one in the heavyweight division since Lewis. There are fewer big ticket fights, and most of them are in the lower weight classes. It won't take much to surpass Boxing, especially among white people.

In short. The UFC is kinda dumb (IMO).

"I find it difficult to see it as involving that much technique. I wouldn't qualify it as a "bar brawl", but I also don't think it's much more involved than that. The training regiment for boxers is so strenuous, these guys are top notch athletes whose bodies are more fine tuned than maybe those of athletes from any other sport."

The majority of UFC and MMA fighters are boxers and martial artists. They train just as strenuously as boxers. And there are boundaries and rules for the matches. If a fighter gets pummeled while he's on the ground, that's his fault for not tapping out.

The reason it has shown less damage to the fighters than boxing is because of the significantly fewer number of headshots that average fighter takes. Most boxers take more headshots in a single match than UFC and MMA fighters take in a career. I don't think longer term observation will change that.

And both forms of fighting have been around for a number of years, they just weren't organized into a league/circuit and sanctioned. Just because you don't like UFC and MMA fighting doesn't mean the fighters aren't equally as athletic as boxers. It doesn't mean that the matches don't have merit as sporting events.

They do have merit as sporting events, I never said they didn't (I just said they were a joke).

The UFC and MMA may have been around for a while now, but no one is going to pay attention to long term injuries to a non-sanctioned sport with a minimal fan base. But as this stuff gains popularity people will pay more and more attention to it. We are just now figuring out the long term affects NFL players are dealing with due to head impact. There was just a concussion consortium held my the NFL this week. I'm no doctor so I don't know the ins and outs of it. But I find it hard to believe there won't be some lasting affects. Give it time (and media attention...that tends to bring this stuff to the forefront).

Maybe guys can't tap out because they are UNCONSCIOUS! Maybe they are a bit dazed and can't gather themselves enough to think to tap out. It's just ridiculous to me.

And I find it hard to believe that some dude named 'Rampage' is as good an athlete as Floyd Mayweather. Maybe these guys were former boxers because they couldn't cut it in the ring. The BOXING ring, that is.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. I gotta head out though. I'm supposed to go meet some friends for a few beers, then go outside and slap fight Chuck Lidell. Later guys!

"They do have merit as sporting events, I never said they didn't (I just said they were a joke)."
Okay. That seems like a total contradiction. If you think something is a joke, you usually don't think it has any merit....

"And I find it hard to believe that some dude named 'Rampage' is as good an athlete as Floyd Mayweather. Maybe these guys were former boxers because they couldn't cut it in the ring. The BOXING ring, that is."
Because he has a stage name? Interesting.

Ughh...They have merit as sporting events. I just have difficulty taking them seriously. If you REALLY want to quote me (which clearly you do) maybe the one thing you should quote is this: 'IMO' In My Opinion.

This is my outlook on stuff. Personally, I think it's a joke. But it still has merit as a sporting event. And allow me to rephrase: I find it hard to believe Chuck Lidell is as good an athlete as Floyd Mayweather. How's that?